Tree rails

[Modelstation]

I am reading The Anatomy of the Ship, The 44 Gun Frigate, The Constitution, Old Ironsides, by Karl Heinz Marquart, which is also my next build, Billings Boats, The USS Constitution 1/100. He refers to tree rails, which I Googled, which it seems Google doesn’t really know either, only a guess. Anybody have any ideas? As I read on, I will search for answers for other terms I don’t know, but I may have to inquire to the knowledge of the members of this wonderful community. Thank you.

 

[AllanKP69]

Treenails??? Then again tree rails may be something else that some member is familiar with. You might want to consider sending an email to the curators Carl Herzog and/or Kate Monea at the USS Constitution Museum. They have always been very friendly and responsive in the past.
Allan

 

[Modelstation]

Treenails??? Then again tree rails may be something else that some member is familiar with. You might want to consider sending an email to the curators Carl Herzog and/or Kate Monea at the USS Constitution Museum. They have always been very friendly and responsive in the past.
Allan

It says tree rails. I will do that, thanks.

 

[Y.T.]

Are not these a round wooden pegs of about 3/4 inch diameter which connected the planks to frames on ship hulls?

Treenail - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bob Cleek]

According to Bing AI, which in my opinion is an excellent example of AI BS:

Tree rails on the USS Constitution, also known as "Old Ironsides," refer to a specific feature of the ship's design. These were wooden rails or structures located along the edges of the ship's decks, often serving as supports or reinforcements for the rigging and masts. They were typically crafted from durable wood, such as white oak, to withstand the stresses of naval operations.

The term "tree rails" might not be widely recognized, but in the context of historical ships like the Constitution, it likely describes elements that contributed to the ship's structural integrity and functionality. The USS Constitution was famously constructed with robust materials, including southern white oak, which gave it the strength to endure battles and earned it the nickname "Old Ironsides."

Unfortunately, they don't provide any citation whatsoever to their source.

According to Google AI, what sounds like a more likely correct answer:

What are tree rails on USS Constitution?

On the USS Constitution, "tree rails" are not a specific part of the ship's structure. It's possible the question might be referring to other elements constructed from wood (trees) that serve as rails or barriers,
according to the USS Constitution Museum.

Here are some elements on the ship that could be mistakenly referred to as "tree rails" or are related to the use of trees in the ship's construction:

• • Rails: These are horizontal timbers that form part of the ship's structure, running along the deck or other areas, serving as railings or supports.
  • Live oak timbers: Live oak, known for its density and strength, was used extensively in the ship's construction, particularly for the framing and potentially for some of the rails due to its durability.
  • White oak timbers: White oak also played a crucial role in the hull and planking of the ship, contributing to its nickname "Old Ironsides" due to its resilience against cannonballs.

It is important to note that the term "tree rails" is not a standard nautical term used to describe a specific part of the ship, according to the USS Constitution Museum. The USS Constitution has undergone numerous repairs and restorations, utilizing various types of wood and evolving construction techniques over its lifespan.

 

[AllanKP69]

Well researched Bob!
Allan

 

[Bob Cleek]

Well researched Bob!
Allan

Thanks, Allan, but, as a life-long professional researcher, I have to give credit to the cited "authorities": Bing and Google's Artificial Intelligence software, which is, in my opinion, only a place to start "peeling the onion." As a trial and appellate lawyer, I've been using AI legal research software for as long as it's been evolving and, in that context, the one thing I've learned is that regardless of how correct the AI answer may be, you always must read the original source material because the AI is often not correct, either in whole or in part. There is a very obvious "generation gap" between those of us "old pharts" who were trained to do research in a library with stacks of casebooks and the "new generation" who were trained to research the law "online." With amazing frequency, these kids are "stung" by relying on AI which is only as good as its algorithms which aren't good enough. AI is great for finding a "thread to tease" and taking it from there, but it can't be trusted as a stand-alone information source.

In this instance, the Bing platform essentially provided what I call AI "BS." It obviously didn't know what it was talking about, so it provided a collection of informative statements that failed to answer the question at all, but sounded good. If that were an answer on a high school essay exam, it would merit perhaps a "D." Google's AI platform was much better. It basically gave the same answer you, and I, got off the top of our wonky heads without reading it: "There's no such thing, but maybe they meant `tree nails.'" Unfortunately, it isn't enough to simply rely on one AI platform's algorithms as "the best." The performances of the various programs are uneven. Sometimes one is better than the other and other times it's the other way around.

I will defer expressing my opinion of the quality of Billings Boats kits and leave it to an AI program to tell us what they think, citing this forum as its authority:

Are Billings Boats ship models any good?

The quality of Billings Boats ship models has received mixed reviews from hobbyists. Some users have reported poor quality and plastic components in their kits, leading to dissatisfaction with the overall build quality. However, others have found the kits to be authentic and authentic-looking, with a wide selection of models. The kits are also praised for their laser-cut wooden parts, which can be a pain to work with due to burn marks and the need for sanding.
While some kits may not meet the expectations of all hobbyists, particularly those seeking high-quality materials and detailed instructions, others have found the kits to be fun and rewarding to build. It is recommended to consider the specific model and its intended use before purchasing, as the quality can vary significantly between different kits.
For those interested in model ship building, it is advisable to research and compare different kits from various manufacturers to find the best fit for your needs and preferences.

Ships of Scale+4

 

[Senorbob]

Treenails??? Then again tree rails may be something else that some member is familiar with. You might want to consider sending an email to the curators Carl Herzog and/or Kate Monea at the USS Constitution Museum. They have always been very friendly and responsive in the past.
Allan

treenails=trunnels

 

[bill36]

I am reading The Anatomy of the Ship, The 44 Gun Frigate, The Constitution, Old Ironsides, by Karl Heinz Marquart, which is also my next build, Billings Boats, The USS Constitution 1/100. He refers to tree rails, which I Googled, which it seems Google doesn’t really know either, only a guess. Anybody have any ideas? As I read on, I will search for answers for other terms I don’t know, but I may have to inquire to the knowledge of the members of this wonderful community. Thank you.

Tree-nails (or as they were called "trunnels") were simply wooden dowels)

 

[AllanKP69]

Tree-nails (or as they were called "trunnels") were simply wooden dowels)

treenails=trunnels

The post is about tree rails, not tree nails/trennals/trunnels. At first I thought it may have been a misspelling as well.
Allan

 

[ConsNZ]

treenail, trenail, trennel, or trunnel, = a hard wooden pin used for fastening timbers together.

 

[AllanKP69]

treenail, trenail, trennel, or trunnel, = a hard wooden pin used for fastening timbers together.

The post asked about tree Rails not tree nails. Maybe it was a typo.
Allan

Original post below and Modelstation confirmed this when asked. Was a new one for me as well. Treenails are as several have posted that are anywhere from about 0.75" diameter to nearly 2", depending on where they are used. Hull planking was usually with treenails closer to 1.5" diameter. There was a rule for their diameter but Peter Goodwin states in The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War that the rule was somewhat flexible.

I am reading The Anatomy of the Ship, The 44 Gun Frigate, The Constitution, Old Ironsides, by Karl Heinz Marquart, which is also my next build, Billings Boats, The USS Constitution 1/100. He refers to tree rails,

 

[Roger Pellett]

I didn’t verify this so it’s worth what you paid for it. I seem to remember that one of the head rails was called the tree rail.

Roger

 

[ConsNZ]

The post asked about tree Rails not tree nails. Maybe it was a typo.
Allan

Original post below and Modelstation confirmed this when asked. Was a new one for me as well. Treenails are as several have posted that are anywhere from about 0.75" diameter to nearly 2", depending on where they are used. Hull planking was usually with treenails closer to 1.5" diameter. There was a rule for their diameter but Peter Goodwin states in The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War that the rule was somewhat flexible.

AllanKP69: pardon my dyslexia
"Tree rails" on a ship, specifically the USS Constitution, refers to wooden rails or structures along the deck edges, likely serving as supports for rigging or masts. These rails were crafted from durable wood, like white oak, to withstand the harsh conditions of naval service. While the term "tree rails" might not be widely used, it describes elements that contributed to the ship's structural integrity.

• Purpose:
  Tree rails provided support for rigging and masts, ensuring the ship's stability and functionality.
  
  
• Material:
  They were typically made from strong, long-lasting wood like white oak, chosen for its ability to withstand stress.
  
  
• Location:
  They were located along the edges of the decks, reinforcing the ship's structure.
  
  
• Historical Context:
  The term is relevant to historical ships like the USS Constitution, highlighting the importance of robust construction in naval vessels.
  
  
• Alternative Terminology:
  While "tree rails" might be used in the context of the Constitution, other terms like "fife rails" or "bulwarks" might be used for similar structures on other ships.
  
  
• Safety:
  Rails in general, including tree rails, also serve as safety features, preventing falls from the deck.

 

[frankieg]

Even Copilot questioned "haha, you mean treenails?"

 

[Namabiiru]

AllanKP69: pardon my dyslexia
"Tree rails" on a ship, specifically the USS Constitution, refers to wooden rails or structures along the deck edges, likely serving as supports for rigging or masts. These rails were crafted from durable wood, like white oak, to withstand the harsh conditions of naval service. While the term "tree rails" might not be widely used, it describes elements that contributed to the ship's structural integrity.

• Purpose:
  Tree rails provided support for rigging and masts, ensuring the ship's stability and functionality.
  
  
• Material:
  They were typically made from strong, long-lasting wood like white oak, chosen for its ability to withstand stress.
  
  
• Location:
  They were located along the edges of the decks, reinforcing the ship's structure.
  
  
• Historical Context:
  The term is relevant to historical ships like the USS Constitution, highlighting the importance of robust construction in naval vessels.
  
  
• Alternative Terminology:
  While "tree rails" might be used in the context of the Constitution, other terms like "fife rails" or "bulwarks" might be used for similar structures on other ships.
  
  
• Safety:
  Rails in general, including tree rails, also serve as safety features, preventing falls from the deck.

Haha. That’s nearly verbatim the same response Bing AI proveded in Bob’s post above.

 

[ConsNZ]

Haha. That’s nearly verbatim the same response Bing AI proveded in Bob’s post above.

Actually that's a copy paste direct from the internet - Never read nor saw Bob's post. -- who's Bob?

 

[franck48]

Hello, is it possible to post some pictures of the pieces in question , from the translation I can not understand of the subject. Thank you.Frank

 

[Modelstation]

Are not these a round wooden pegs of about 3/4 inch diameter which connected the planks to frames on ship hulls?

Treenail - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No, not tree nail, it says tree rails.

According to Bing AI, which in my opinion is an excellent example of AI BS:

Tree rails on the USS Constitution, also known as "Old Ironsides," refer to a specific feature of the ship's design. These were wooden rails or structures located along the edges of the ship's decks, often serving as supports or reinforcements for the rigging and masts. They were typically crafted from durable wood, such as white oak, to withstand the stresses of naval operations.

The term "tree rails" might not be widely recognized, but in the context of historical ships like the Constitution, it likely describes elements that contributed to the ship's structural integrity and functionality. The USS Constitution was famously constructed with robust materials, including southern white oak, which gave it the strength to endure battles and earned it the nickname "Old Ironsides."

Unfortunately, they don't provide any citation whatsoever to their source.

According to Google AI, what sounds like a more likely correct answer:

What are tree rails on USS Constitution?

On the USS Constitution, "tree rails" are not a specific part of the ship's structure. It's possible the question might be referring to other elements constructed from wood (trees) that serve as rails or barriers,
according to the USS Constitution Museum.

Here are some elements on the ship that could be mistakenly referred to as "tree rails" or are related to the use of trees in the ship's construction:

• • Rails: These are horizontal timbers that form part of the ship's structure, running along the deck or other areas, serving as railings or supports.
  • Live oak timbers: Live oak, known for its density and strength, was used extensively in the ship's construction, particularly for the framing and potentially for some of the rails due to its durability.
  • White oak timbers: White oak also played a crucial role in the hull and planking of the ship, contributing to its nickname "Old Ironsides" due to its resilience against cannonballs.

It is important to note that the term "tree rails" is not a standard nautical term used to describe a specific part of the ship, according to the USS Constitution Museum. The USS Constitution has undergone numerous repairs and restorations, utilizing various types of wood and evolving construction techniques over its lifespan.

Thank you, Bob. I appreciate your input. I really couldn’t find any solid answers, only guesses online. In reading further, it seems it was a term that Karl Marquart was using in reference to the Constitution and her two sister ships, the USS President and the USS United States. It reads, “On the latest draught the foremost gun port or bridle port has been added to the gun deck, twelve bollard timbers are situated fore and aft under the rough tree rail and a second gammoning slot is cut into the gammoning knee.

 

[AndyA]

I am reading The Anatomy of the Ship, The 44 Gun Frigate, The Constitution, Old Ironsides, by Karl Heinz Marquart, which is also my next build, Billings Boats, The USS Constitution 1/100. He refers to tree rails, ...

Could you include more of Marquart's writing so we could understand the context of his use of the term? Fair winds!