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4 strand rope making questions

RickNoyes

RickNoyes

Joined
Mar 4, 2021
Messages
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Location
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
I have the Syren ropewalk and it is configure for making 3 strand ropes. I am modifying it to make 4 strand ropes as well. My questions are,
1.Is it necessary or recommended to have the 4 strands wound around a central core strand or is there a negligable differance, with or without?
2. If using a central core does it need to be independant of the winding process in both directions? That is to say the center core is stationary while the 4 strands are wound around the core or can it be fixed at either end and be incorporated into the winding process?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Rick
 
@RickNoyes, I can only speak from my own experiences... not necessary the perfect way. I asked myself the same question, then realized that the Syren ropewalk is not really designed for a central core (although it could be modified). So I went ahead with the 4 strands as with 3. Besides the benefits of giving you the option of larger size and/or intermediary, I did not notice any change in the final results, none whatsoever. I even stranded 16 strands together for a large 2.2mm diameter... all was fine.

Hope this helps! Let me get you a picture:
First: Left 3 strands, right 4 strands.
Second: 2.2mm rope / 16 strands
 
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Loracs said:
@RickNoyes, I can only speak from my own experiences... not necessary the perfect way. I was asking myself the same question, then realized that the Syren ropewalk is not really designed for a central core (although could be modified). Therefore, I went ahead with the 4 strands as with 3. Beside the benefits of giving, you the option of larger size and/or intermediary, I did not notice any change in the final results, none whatsoever. I even stranded 16 strands together for a large 2.5mm diameter... all was fine.

Hope this help! let me get you a picture.
Click to expand...
Thanks very much Loracs. As I write this I think the pictures have come through.
Cheers
Rick
 
my pleasure... I was here, so why not take a couple pictures... replace a thousand words.
 
Fantastic. I have read that without the core the 4 strands tend to flatten out. Did you find this to be the case? However looking at the pics you sent I don't think you'd notice one way or the other. Thanks again for the quick responce. I'm off to my local hobby shop to get the additional gears I require shortly. Thanks ever so much.
Cheers
Rick
 
Not at all, It behave exactly the same... this is using Polyester Mara though. Maybe different with other material.
 
As far as I know, the only commercially available rope making machines that are presently available that provide a mechanism for making cored rope are the models from Aleksei Domanov (now https://www.shipworkshop.com/) Three- and four-strand line can be produced with a fine wire or thread core. According to Domanov's instructions, the wire core permits shaping the wire, as in footrope catenaries where desired with three-strand line, but the core is not optional, but essential for preventing the "collapse" of one of the three strands of four-strand line into the center of the four-strand layup. (Full disclosure: I've never used the core feature on my PL4.) One the PL4, the core is fed through the center axle of the planetary wheel from a separate bobbin.

According to the Domanov instructions (https://www.shipworkshop.com/_files/ugd/261ffb_78bd683d2cf649b88c671c133ebcbfbe.pdf), the size of the central core is important:

1756085150391.png

Per anecdotal reports, polyester thread does not seem to mind four-strand layups without a core strand and reportedly doesn't tend to collapse one strand into the center of the four-strand layup as seems to be the case with natural fiber thread. This may be attributable to the long fibers of the extruded polyester fibers or the tightness of the layups.
 
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@EspenT, greeting. I'm using the following:

Note the picture is not quite accurate to the real thing but it gives a rough idea.

Guterman Mara 854 - light tan greenish
Guterman Mara 696 - Dark brown

other I have seen posted, but I never ordered those:
Mara 000 Black
Mara 186 tan
Mara 722 light beige

IMG_3221.jpeg
 
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Bob Cleek said:
As far as I know, the only commercially available rope making machines that is presently available that provides a mechanism for making cored rope are the models from Aleksei Domanov (now https://www.shipworkshop.com/) Three- and four-strand line can be produced with a fine wire or thread core. According to Domanov's instructions, the wire core permits shaping the wire, as in footrope catenaries where desired with three-strand line, but the core is not optional, but essential for preventing the "collapse" of one of the three strands of four-strand line into the center of the four-strand layup. (Full disclosure: I've never used the core feature on my PL4.) One the PL4, the core is fed through the center axle of the planetary wheel from a separate bobbin.

According to the Domanov instructions (https://www.shipworkshop.com/_files/ugd/261ffb_78bd683d2cf649b88c671c133ebcbfbe.pdf), the size of the central core is important:

View attachment 539857

Per anecdotal reports, polyester thread does not seem to mind four-strand layups without a core strand and reportedly doesn't tend to collapse one strand into the center of the four-strand layup as seems to be the case with natural fiber thread. This may be attributable to the long fibers of the extruded polyester fibers or the tightness of the layups.
Click to expand...
Thanks Bob. From the illustration it makes sence that the internal core diameter would have to match the diameter of the center of the 4 strands. I think some experimentation will be in order once I get the gears sorted. Unfortunately the hobby shop only had 2 in stock so will be waiting on them for a week or so before I can have a play.
 
Loracs said:
@EspenT, greeting. I'm using the following:

Note the picture is not quite accurate to the real thing but it gives a rough idea.

Guterman Mara 854 - light tan greenish
Guterman Mara 696 - Dark brown

other I have seen posted, but I never ordered those:
Mara 000 Black
Mara 186 tan
Mara 722 light beige

View attachment 539871
Click to expand...
Thank you. That is quite a bit thicker than Guntermann E-series that I have been using so far.
This seems like a much better option for thicker ropes.
I see different Mara threads when googling. Is this Mara 30?
 
Greeting, I grab two random rolls from my stash. The thickness left is indeed 30 but right is 120. The have quite a range of size available. I got: 30, 70, 100, 120 for each color. 30 = coarse, 120=fine

The picture was magnified 2x, a roll is 7.5cm x 3cm
 
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My experience with 4-strand rope is that the core should be one-third of the thickness of a strand. The core should be a rope and should not twist with the strands. However, it must be kept taut and should therefore run through an eye with a weight on the rope walk. This is where the 4 strands are twisted. This gives me the best results.
 
I have been playing with Copilot (AI) lately and have found it useful for some things but you must be wary of the answers. My wife calls them AI hallucinations. I.e. it can make things up that it thinks you may want to hear. That said.. I asked it about the question.

TO ROTATE OR NOT ROTATE (the CORE)? That is the question. I think a famous person once posed a similar question in a play once.
Answer given.
Option 1: Rotating Core Strand (Twisted with the Others)
Pros:
  • Better integration: The core binds more tightly with the outer strands, reducing internal slippage.
  • Uniform tension: Helps distribute load more evenly across all five strands.
  • Aesthetic symmetry: Visually, the rope appears more cohesive and balanced.
Use case: Ideal for ropes where the core contributes to strength or where you want a fully unified structure—like climbing ropes or decorative cords with consistent twist.

Option 2: Stationary Core Strand (Held Fixed While Others Twist Around It)
Pros:
  • Flexible core: Allows the outer strands to compress around the core, creating a looser, more cushioned rope.
  • Core isolation: Useful if the core serves a different function (e.g., shock absorption, signalling, or housing a wire).
  • Reduced torsion: The core won’t store twist, which can be helpful in ropes that need to remain supple or untwist easily.
Use case: Common in ropes where the core is a passive filler or has a distinct material property—like paracord with a nylon core or ropes with a fibre-optic or electrical cable inside.

Hallucination or fact? And at modelling scale would it make any differance at all?
Your thoughts?
Cheers Rick
 
In my book of clipper ships built in the 1850's it mentions rope that is 12" in diameter. How many strands would you have to lay up to get a 12" rope? And the bigger question, have you ever seen a 12" rope? I don't think I have at all. My model is 1:48 scale so that would mean the 12" rope is 1/4" thick , right? I think this requires some more serious thinking on my part.
 
Norgale said:
In my book of clipper ships built in the 1850's it mentions rope that is 12" in diameter. How many strands would you have to lay up to get a 12" rope? And the bigger question, have you ever seen a 12" rope? I don't think I have at all. My model is 1:48 scale so that would mean the 12" rope is 1/4" thick , right? I think this requires some more serious thinking on my part.
Click to expand...

Are you sure that wasn't 12" in circumference? That was commonly the way rope was measured.
 
I believe that four-stranded rope in hemp was traditionally made with a stationary heart (the traditional term), rove through a hole in the top on the ropewalk. Its primary purpose was to fill the void between the strands so that they would not collapse into the center and the rope would remain round. Four-stranded line was usually considered to be more supple than three-stranded line. As an archaeological example from Vasa, the hearts are usually just a few yarns (7 and 9 the most common), Z-spun and S-twisted into a loose cord that does not appear to be twisted as the rope is closed. I suspect in a model, where the line is under no real load, the heart will not matter, unless one wants to run the raw rope through a process of stretching and running over a pulley to compress it. The longer fibres in synthetic thread, as noted above, probably resist strand collapse perfectly well for a model.

In traditional terminology, a 12-inch rope is 12 inches in circumference, a little less than 4 inches in diameter. This would almost certainly be cable, as it is nearly impossible to make a normal hawser- or shroud-laid rope of this size that will balance. As a result, it would have a left-hand (or S) lay if made from Z-spun yarns.

As a side note, I have spent the last weeks excavating a rowing barge from 1738, and it produced some cablets (probably anchor cable but possibly stays) only about 40 mm in diameter, which would be 4½ or 5 inch cable.

Fred
 
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