Displaying Model

travoski

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#1
Hi all need some help or advise from the members here.
I am building HMS Victory and am trying to plan ahead as to how to display the model,the intention is to build it into a book case and to add glass door/doors with a light above but my biggest decision is should I do it with the sails and the cannon on display cause I have seen many done this way and the sails and cannon are included in the kit,or I am leaning more towards the ship with sails furled as if she were in port(did big ships like this tie up to a whalf or did they just anchor out in the harbour I am not sure)if in port would all the guns be run out? I don't think so. so it would stand to reason if I built it with sails furled the cannon ports would be closed maybe the cannon on the upper deck could be run out?also I am not sure how to do the furled sails as the instuctions for my kit are to have the sails open.The other option is with no sails but I don't think I like this option.Sorry if I am rambling a bit here.
Option 1: Build as per the instructions
Option 2: Build with no sails
Option 3 : In Port with sails furled as if she was being re-supplied(my prefered option but will need to find out how the sails would have looked)
So guys sorry again for the long ramble any advice,images,articles or posts on the subject would be greatly appreciated
regards
Trevor
 

epicdoom

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#3
The best person to ask about this would be Uwek @Uwek In port I would personally furl the sails. Sails would be removed for repairs and cleaning or if the ship would be in port for a long time for repairs or just long rest. As for where the ship tied off or anchored off I would say it would depend on different factors. Ships were tied off in port to the dock and were anchored out away from docks when ports were full or there wasn't enough water at the port for the ships draft/ draught as for the Guns that I do not know. Like I said Uwek is the best best for accurate info hopefully he will chime in, he is a treasure trove of information on ships, I known of no one else who is more in the know about them
 

MOG

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#4
I follow the building style of master model builder Frank Mastini in his book Ship Modeling Simplified “ He states a lot can be said about sails on models, and not much of it is good. Why bother to spend hour upon hour painstakingly rigging your model and then cover everything with sails” His book also mentions furled sails where he states “if you must install sails try to install them half-furled. This at least will allow some of the rigging to show” He also adds for furled sails make sure you use the thinnest material possible or they will look to clumsy. Ok on the sails this is only one opinion be it from a well-respected master builder it is still only his preferred style. I can not say to much my self as I have never added sails, but I do like the furled look, they catch the eye and adds something to the build. As for the guns and gun ports it’s your call what shows off your build the best? In the Portsmouth picture of the Victory the gun ports are both open and closed, for me it’s a nice look. At the end of the day its your build you put your heart and soul and allot of time into a build, I think it becomes a part of you. Display it in a way that makes you feel good about your work. Anyway just my spin

DSC02401.JPG
 

epicdoom

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#5
I follow the building style of master model builder Frank Mastini in his book Ship Modeling Simplified “ He states a lot can be said about sails on models, and not much of it is good. Why bother to spend hour upon hour painstakingly rigging your model and then cover everything with sails” His book also mentions furled sails where he states “if you must install sails try to install them half-furled. This at least will allow some of the rigging to show” He also adds for furled sails make sure you use the thinnest material possible or they will look to clumsy. Ok on the sails this is only one opinion be it from a well-respected master builder it is still only his preferred style. I can not say to much my self as I have never added sails, but I do like the furled look, they catch the eye and adds something to the build. As for the guns and gun ports it’s your call what shows off your build the best? In the Portsmouth picture of the Victory the gun ports are both open and closed, for me it’s a nice look. At the end of the day its your build you put your heart and soul and allot of time into a build, I think it becomes a part of you. Display it in a way that makes you feel good about your work. Anyway just my spin

I also prefer to use no sail most times, but on some models furled sails look really good
 

Uwek

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#6
As I understood, you want to show the ship in a historical or technical correct situation.....
....the very positive thing is, that every situation could have been possible in the harbour

Take a look at this contemporary painting:

large.jpg

A composite picture showing five of the ships in which Nelson served as a captain and flag officer from the start of the French Wars in 1793 to his death in 1805. The artist has depicted them drying sails in a calm at Spithead, Portsmouth, and despite the traditional title, two of them were not strictly flagships. The ship on the left in bow view is the 'Agamemnon', 64 guns. It was Nelson's favourite ship, which he commanded as a captain from 1793. Broadside on is the 'Vanguard', 74 guns, his flagship at the Battle of the Nile in 1798 flying a white ensign and his blue flag as Rear-Admiral of the Blue at the mizzen. Stern on is the 'Elephant', 74 guns, his temporary flagship at the Battle of Copenhagen in 1801. She is flying the blue ensign from the stern and Nelson's flag as Vice-Admiral of the Blue at her foremast. In the centre distance is the 'Captain', 74 guns, in which Nelson flew a commodore's broad pendant at the Battle of St Vincent, 1797. Dominating the right foreground is the 'Victory', 100 guns, shown in her original state, with open stern galleries, and not as she was at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805. She is shown at anchor flying the flag of Vice-Admiral of the White, Nelson's Trafalgar rank, and firing a salute to starboard as an admiral's barge is rowed alongside, amidst other small craft. The painting is one of a series of six paintings created for a two-volume 'Life of Nelson', begun shortly after Nelson's death in 1805 by Clarke and McArthur and published in 1809. They were engraved by James Fittler and reproduced in the biography with lengthy explanatory texts. The artist placed considerable importance on accuracy, referring to his annotated drawings and sketch plans in the production of his oil paintings. Pocock was born and brought up in Bristol, went to sea at the age of 17 and rose to command several merchant ships. Although he only took up painting as a profession in his early forties, he became extremely successful, receiving commissions from naval commanders anxious to have accurate portrayals of actions and ships. By the age of 80, Pocock had recorded nearly 40 years of maritime history, demonstrating a meticulous understanding of shipping and rigging with close attention to detail.

Means here we have the ships with drying sails, so partly installed, also partly with guns out for firing a salute

or another one:

large (1).jpg

The 'Victory' is shown centre foreground, in port broadside view, under full sail. She flies the red ensign and the flag of Vice-Admiral of the Red, and the three-decker first-rate astern of her to the right is probably the 'Queen Charlotte'. It is not clear what event is being commemorated, but in the background the ships at anchor are arranged in lines, while in the foreground, the ships under sail appear to be part of a procession. This may be an interpretation of the Royal Review of the Grand Fleet at Spithead on 1 July 1791, when 'The Times' records that 'the Duke of Gloucester preceded by Lord Hood in his barge went out to Spithead'. They entered the two lines at the east end, going round the 'Magnificent' and were rowed down to the 'Victory', the yards and tops of the fleet being manned and the marines drawn up. On their coming aboard the Commander-in-Chief, the standard was hoisted at the maintop, when there was a royal salute from the whole fleet. They went afterwards on board the 'Hannibal'. The ships in the background are portrayed firing a salute. That said, the picture was exhibited at the Royal Academy in 1792 as 'His Majesty's ship 'Victory' sailing from Spithead with a division from a grand fleet'. This suggests the alternative possibility that it derived from the brief scare called 'the Russian armament' in 1790 when the fleet mobilized but was quickly stood down. The picture, engraved by Dodd, was also published by T. Simpson as a large print and under its exhibited title on 21 August 1792 (see PAJ2246). The same plate was reissued by John P.Thompson on 1 January 1806 (PAH6248). This time, however, there was a new title - 'His Majesty's Ship Victory under Sail from Portsmouth to the Downs with the Corpse of the Immortal Nelson' - a good example of opportunist recycling of an earlier image to capitalize on a much later event (11 December 1805). In this second printing the Union flags were not updated to the post-1801pattern, which suggests that Dodd may not have been involved in the reissue. Spithead is the sheet of water between the north-eastern shore of the Isle of Wight and the English mainland. It forms a deep, sheltered channel leading into Portsmouth Harbour and provides the main Naval anchorage outside the harbour for assembling fleets to sail, or for reviews. Dodd was an English marine painter, engraver and ship portraitist who was a prolific recorder of naval actions in the American and French Revolutionary Wars. The painting is signed by the artist and dated 'R.Dodd 1791' on the stern of the boat in the foreground.

Also here the ships are shown with only some sails installed some without

I think you should think about, what you like and prefer most and prepare your model according your feeling how you want to present the model.
 

shipbuilder

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#7
Sails or no sails, if you display them properly, you don't obscure much at all. Take this one of the Loch Torridon, the model is viewed from the back of the sails, and not from the ever-popular front! In this way, hardly any rigging is hidden and this ship is considerably more complicated than Napoleonic warships. The other model, of the barque East African, has furled sails, and they look OK as well, because they are in the correct proportion. Sails on a lot of static models often look bad because they are too thick and chunky.
Loch Torridon (Large).JPG East African (Large).JPG
 

travoski

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#9
Sails or no sails, if you display them properly, you don't obscure much at all. Take this one of the Loch Torridon, the model is viewed from the back of the sails, and not from the ever-popular front! In this way, hardly any rigging is hidden and this ship is considerably more complicated than Napoleonic warships. The other model, of the barque East African, has furled sails, and they look OK as well, because they are in the correct proportion. Sails on a lot of static models often look bad because they are too thick and chunky.
View attachment 66823 View attachment 66824
Thanks for the images I like the furled look but I wouldn't know how to go about doing it I will need lots of research I think
 

travoski

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#10
As I understood, you want to show the ship in a historical or technical correct situation.....
....the very positive thing is, that every situation could have been possible in the harbour

Take a look at this contemporary painting:

View attachment 66818

A composite picture showing five of the ships in which Nelson served as a captain and flag officer from the start of the French Wars in 1793 to his death in 1805. The artist has depicted them drying sails in a calm at Spithead, Portsmouth, and despite the traditional title, two of them were not strictly flagships. The ship on the left in bow view is the 'Agamemnon', 64 guns. It was Nelson's favourite ship, which he commanded as a captain from 1793. Broadside on is the 'Vanguard', 74 guns, his flagship at the Battle of the Nile in 1798 flying a white ensign and his blue flag as Rear-Admiral of the Blue at the mizzen. Stern on is the 'Elephant', 74 guns, his temporary flagship at the Battle of Copenhagen in 1801. She is flying the blue ensign from the stern and Nelson's flag as Vice-Admiral of the Blue at her foremast. In the centre distance is the 'Captain', 74 guns, in which Nelson flew a commodore's broad pendant at the Battle of St Vincent, 1797. Dominating the right foreground is the 'Victory', 100 guns, shown in her original state, with open stern galleries, and not as she was at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805. She is shown at anchor flying the flag of Vice-Admiral of the White, Nelson's Trafalgar rank, and firing a salute to starboard as an admiral's barge is rowed alongside, amidst other small craft. The painting is one of a series of six paintings created for a two-volume 'Life of Nelson', begun shortly after Nelson's death in 1805 by Clarke and McArthur and published in 1809. They were engraved by James Fittler and reproduced in the biography with lengthy explanatory texts. The artist placed considerable importance on accuracy, referring to his annotated drawings and sketch plans in the production of his oil paintings. Pocock was born and brought up in Bristol, went to sea at the age of 17 and rose to command several merchant ships. Although he only took up painting as a profession in his early forties, he became extremely successful, receiving commissions from naval commanders anxious to have accurate portrayals of actions and ships. By the age of 80, Pocock had recorded nearly 40 years of maritime history, demonstrating a meticulous understanding of shipping and rigging with close attention to detail.

Means here we have the ships with drying sails, so partly installed, also partly with guns out for firing a salute

or another one:

View attachment 66819

The 'Victory' is shown centre foreground, in port broadside view, under full sail. She flies the red ensign and the flag of Vice-Admiral of the Red, and the three-decker first-rate astern of her to the right is probably the 'Queen Charlotte'. It is not clear what event is being commemorated, but in the background the ships at anchor are arranged in lines, while in the foreground, the ships under sail appear to be part of a procession. This may be an interpretation of the Royal Review of the Grand Fleet at Spithead on 1 July 1791, when 'The Times' records that 'the Duke of Gloucester preceded by Lord Hood in his barge went out to Spithead'. They entered the two lines at the east end, going round the 'Magnificent' and were rowed down to the 'Victory', the yards and tops of the fleet being manned and the marines drawn up. On their coming aboard the Commander-in-Chief, the standard was hoisted at the maintop, when there was a royal salute from the whole fleet. They went afterwards on board the 'Hannibal'. The ships in the background are portrayed firing a salute. That said, the picture was exhibited at the Royal Academy in 1792 as 'His Majesty's ship 'Victory' sailing from Spithead with a division from a grand fleet'. This suggests the alternative possibility that it derived from the brief scare called 'the Russian armament' in 1790 when the fleet mobilized but was quickly stood down. The picture, engraved by Dodd, was also published by T. Simpson as a large print and under its exhibited title on 21 August 1792 (see PAJ2246). The same plate was reissued by John P.Thompson on 1 January 1806 (PAH6248). This time, however, there was a new title - 'His Majesty's Ship Victory under Sail from Portsmouth to the Downs with the Corpse of the Immortal Nelson' - a good example of opportunist recycling of an earlier image to capitalize on a much later event (11 December 1805). In this second printing the Union flags were not updated to the post-1801pattern, which suggests that Dodd may not have been involved in the reissue. Spithead is the sheet of water between the north-eastern shore of the Isle of Wight and the English mainland. It forms a deep, sheltered channel leading into Portsmouth Harbour and provides the main Naval anchorage outside the harbour for assembling fleets to sail, or for reviews. Dodd was an English marine painter, engraver and ship portraitist who was a prolific recorder of naval actions in the American and French Revolutionary Wars. The painting is signed by the artist and dated 'R.Dodd 1791' on the stern of the boat in the foreground.

Also here the ships are shown with only some sails installed some without

I think you should think about, what you like and prefer most and prepare your model according your feeling how you want to present the model.

Thankyou for the great images I think I am out of my depth on this
 

janos

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#11
In my opinion as we display a single model (as opposed to a diorama) it should not have sails on it. The 'as in the harbour' state is the best, showing masts, yards, rigging, but no sails. My arguments, put very short, are as follows:

1./ It is very difficult to make sails to scale. Even the thinnest material is too thick in most of the scales, and sawing them properly together is a nightmare. There are models with correctvscalest, but very rarely.
2./ It looks very unnatural to show sales on a model standing on a base. And even more unnatural when those sails are bent with big effort to a 'wind blown' state, even more so with metal wires to keep their shape.
3./ A well made model can last hundred years but the sails give up the fight after 10-15 years. They deteriorate, mold, collect dust and humidity.

As opposed to the single models I feel that diorama models can have sails as the diorama is a snapshot of the original ship's life, showing its state on water, in a harbour or on open see, and in this case the sails add much reality to the picture.
Just my 2 cents.
Janos
 

shipbuilder

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#12
These two have shaped sails, but they are scratchbuilt. Kit manufacturers seem to be incapable of producing realistic sails, so if you want reasonable ones, the only option is to make them yourself. To me, if they do not have a wind-filled shape, they do not look right. Nothing worse than flat sails and flat flags!
Lord Ripon in hand.JPG SOMALI.jpg
 
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