18th century royal navy pinnace

  • Thread starter Thread starter Alby
  • Start date Start date
  • Watchers Watchers 4
Joined
Aug 31, 2024
Messages
21
Points
48

Just finished my royal navy pinnace and presented it to Sunderland maritime heritage they are delighted with it as it going to sit on the deck of HMS venerable 1784 74 gun 3rd ship of the line 1/10th scale I built the boat from photos and a shoddy looking plan I managed to download off the internet I am pleased with the outcome as it's my first boat I have ever built

IMG_20250514_071750287_AE.jpg

IMG_20250514_071742202_AE.jpg
 
Just finished my royal navy pinnace
Your boat is neatly done. Is this from a kit? The reason I ask is that the location of the tholes is odd. Pinnaces were typically single banked with one thole on each thwart, alternating port and starboard. Your model has two tholes on one thwart, then none on the next one and so forth I realize this is a common mistake because some contemporary drawings (second boat below) only show tholes on one side as they are cutaway views and then some viewers assume there is a matching thole on the opposite side of the same thwart which is not the case for a pinnace. I hope this is making sense.

Drawings follow

Allan

PInnace comparison.PNG
Single banked rowing
1747739105007.jpeg
 
Last edited:
That's an interesting spot Allan.
I totally agree, but that brings two questions - were they always equipped with double thole pins? Its has been 'traditional to use babes, with a strop to allow the return stroke and prevent losing an oar. without a collar, double thole pins allow an oar to leave the boat, and should the rower catch a crab, or try to extend the stroke for whatever reason - such as being under gunfire, then the action of the thole pins is to lever the gunwale or mounting block apart, and the seat position shown allows a huge leverage to achieve such a bad action.

and the second question - surely each rowing station (thwart) would be equipped with pins, locks, babes or whatever on both sides. At its simplest, this allows stroke to be on either side of the boat, and all rowers following appropriately port and starboard. Further, in the event of damage to the pins / lock rowers can be redistributed to continue at full strength. This may not have been Admiralty fashion back in the day though.

For some modern discussion, see:-
 
Your boat is neatly done. Is this from a kit? The reason I ask is that the location of the tholes is odd. Pinnaces were typically single banked with one thole on each thwart, alternating port and starboard. Your model has two tholes on one thwart, then none on the next one and so forth I realize this is a common mistake because some contemporary drawings (second boat below) only show tholes on one side as they are cutaway views and then some viewers assume there is a matching thole on the opposite side of the same thwart which is not the case for a pinnace. I hope this is making sense.

Drawings follow

Allan

View attachment 520840
Single banked rowing
View attachment 520847
Not a kit scratch built from downloaded plan from grenwich maritime then from photos
 
Your boat is neatly done. Is this from a kit? The reason I ask is that the location of the tholes is odd. Pinnaces were typically single banked with one thole on each thwart, alternating port and starboard. Your model has two tholes on one thwart, then none on the next one and so forth I realize this is a common mistake because some contemporary drawings (second boat below) only show tholes on one side as they are cutaway views and then some viewers assume there is a matching thole on the opposite side of the same thwart which is not the case for a pinnace. I hope this is making sense.

Drawings follow

Allan

View attachment 520840
Single banked rowing
View attachment 520847
Hi alan i am not a experienced model boat builder i was asked to build it for sunderland maritime they wanted a boat that would sit oh hms venerable a 1/10th scale model so it is only my representation of a 18th century pinnace just working off a very bad plan i could hardly make out hope this helps
 
just working off a very bad plan
Your model really does look neatly done! I love seeing such a huge scale ship and boat, I am guessing that is quite rare. Thanks for sharing the video it is well done.
Regarding the plan that you used, it is a shame you could not get more detailed information. For the future, if they want additional boats (Venerable would have had six :) ), there are nearly 50 very detailed RMG plans of ships' boats in high resolution on the Wiki Commons site including 14 pinnace drawings available for free download. There are also books with details that would be helpful for anyone building a ship's boat such as The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War, chapters 38-43, and The Boats of Men of War by W. E. May. Boat scantlings can be found in the book by May, as well as in David Steel's The Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture and Scantlings of Royal Navy Ships.

Allan
 
Last edited:
Your model really does look neatly done! I love seeing such a huge scale ship and boat, I am guessing that is quite rare. Thanks for sharing the video it is well done.
Regarding the plan that you used, it is a shame you could not get more detailed information. For the future, if they want additional boats (Venerable would have had six :) ), there are nearly 50 very detailed RMG plans of ships' boats in high resolution on the Wiki Commons site including 14 pinnace drawings available for free download. There are also books with details that would be helpful for anyone building a ship's boat such as The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War, chapters 38-43, and The Boats of Men of War by W. E. May. Boat scantlings can be found in the book by May, as well as in David Steel's The Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture and Scantlings of Royal Navy Ships.

Allan
Thanks for that info alan they do want more but finding time is the problem once again thank you for your comments
 
I wish I was near you, I would love to be a volunteer on your team if you were looking for more members. She likely carried a 28 foot and 32 foot pinnace, 33 or 34 foot launch, two 22-25 foot cutters and an 18 foot cutter so lots of choices but the best drawing I can find in addition to the pinnaces being the launch.
Allan

1747827280949.jpeg
 
surely each rowing station (thwart) would be equipped with pins, locks, babes or whatever on both sides
You bring up an interesting point Jim, but so far, based on contemporary models and plans I have never seen a single banked boat with tholes or pins on both port and starboard for every thwart. There would be no reason to do so if the boat is 6 feet wide with no room for two oarsmen on each thwart. In looking again at a bunch of contemporary cutter and pinnace drawings, interestingly it seems that the single banked pinnaces mostly have the forward most thole starboard and on the single banked cutters the forward most thole is port. None of them have pins or tholes on both sides for every thwart so I assume (I know that is not usually a good idea :) ) they were actually built as in the models and drawings. In the end whether the first thwart has an oar starboard or port probably makes no difference.
Allan
 
Thanks, Allan

I'm happy to take your advice. Can I point out though, that we are not concerned with trying to put two oars at a single station. Suppose that the gunwale is damaged - time to swap sides, and leave the broken station unused, whilst keeping a full and balanced set of rowers active. When not in use, of course, pins can be withdrawn to preserve a smooth gunwale where lines may be in use, and to prevent fouling the oars as they are manoeuvred into place.

As far as the cox is concerned, it's the stroke and bow oars that are of most interest. they (the oarsmen) are the ones you rely on for sensible actions, (and advice), and it doesn't really matter which side they are on, or maybe it does if you are going alongside the flagship and need to look smart with the crew able to work the boat competently.

Interesting trivia. The Admiralty Manual of Seamanship (1939 edition) has a few pointers for approaching larger vessels. I always wonder how the midshipmen, with zero knowledge or experience, could command a small boat in a sea and be expected to cope. You grew up quickly in those days.
Jim
 
Interesting trivia. The Admiralty Manual of Seamanship (1939 edition) has a few pointers for approaching larger vessels. I always wonder how the midshipmen, with zero knowledge or experience, could command a small boat in a sea and be expected to cope. You grew up quickly in those days.
When I was a Plebe at the US Merchant Marine Academy we had to get qualified as a lifeboatman before starting our sea year which was the second of our four years there. We were on US flag merchant ships and had to go on board with a qualification and lifeboatman was the ticket. We learned to act as coxswain with a steering oar and give proper commands to load, row away and return to the dock. Seems basic, but for first timers, it was a challenge the first few tries. Ship oars!!


Allan
 
Suppose that the gunwale is damaged - time to swap sides, and leave the broken station unused, whilst keeping a full and balanced set of rowers active.
That makes sense. I would love to read some contemporary materials about this if there is any to be found. Once again, we could sure use Mr. Peabody's Wabac machine for a few days. :)
Allan
 
We learned to act as coxswain with a steering oar and give proper commands to load, row away and return to the dock. Seems basic, but for first timers, it was a challenge the first few tries. Ship oars!!
Cox with a steering oar?

Used to launch and recover from a North Sea beach near here in a skiff full of rank newcomers ( not quite true - always made sure that bow and stroke knew what they were doing.) Being a shallow beach, couldn't ship the rudder, or unfold it, until there was enough water, and only half the crew knew port from starboard, so a command like 'Pull Starboard' to keep onward to the breakers was sometimes a bit hairy. And the number of times a steering oar would have been a Good Thing when coming in were legion. Newcomers are not good at backing to avoid being taken in on the surf, or understanding why you don't want to do that.

All of which makes you think about oars and thole pins differently.

J
 
Back
Top