Ancient Phoenecian Trade Boat 1,500 BCE

Heinrich

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Rich there is tons of information available.

phoeniciaiv.jpg

This is the Phoenicia - the only replica ship of the Phoenician vessel in the world. Just type in Phoenicia Replica Ship and you will find a plethora of information, websites., pictures etc.

130205142350-phoenician-expedition-horizontal-gallery.jpg

130205142535-phoneician-expedition-horizontal-gallery.jpg

130205143555-phoenician-hard-work-horizontal-gallery.jpg

130205143826-phoenician-ship-building-vertical-gallery.jpg

130205144416-phoenician-table-mountain-horizontal-gallery.jpg

This last picture was obviously taken in the Cape Town Harbour (South Africa) with Table Mountain as backdrop).

All these images are from CNN. The link is: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/28/world/americas/phoenician-christopher-columbus-america-sailboat/


Then - the company Model Shipyard actually has a model available. It is not a kit, but a fully built model.

SSKA.png

www.stephensandkenau.com/wp-content/themes/modeShipYardTheme/timthumb.php?w=640&zc=1&q=100&src=https://www.stephensandkenau.com/wp

So there you go my friend - now now more excuses.

And Rich, please open a separate thread on this build - in the Bluenose log, it is not going to get the attention it deserves.
 
It has been recommended that I move a number of resource URLs, Photos, and Posts about this boat type that I have been trying to gather information, photos, illustrations, archeological papers, etc. . . in order to scratch build one that conforms as best as current understanding provides. There are some inaccurate images and attributes to this era and type of boat that are incorrect and that I want to avoid. For any Freemasons, they will recognize my interest in this particular ship and will be donated to my lodge. Hopefully we can get things transferred from the YQ Bluenose thread and elsewhere from prior postings to this thread. Thanks for your prior assistance and what you may add to this endeavor. Rich (PT-2)Clay Model Side View Phoenecian Boat.pngPhoenecian Boat Model.jpgphoenecian_clay_model_top_view.pngPhoenecian boat museum model.pngPhoenecian trade boat framing.jpg
The clay boats are from archeological finds and provide information that in semi-buried recovery of wood hull frames and planking provide most of what is presently known as almost everything about the boats themselves rotted away and what we now visualize is largely speculative. These came from various sources and I'll try to recover and embed the links separately with some help from Zolly. Rich (PT-2)Stem and Planking phoenician-ship-building-vertical-gallery.jpg This one and some following are 130205142350-phoenician-expedition-horizontal-gallery.jpgfrom a currently build reconstruction/reenactment.
Port Stem quarter  phoenician-hard-work-horizontal-gallery.jpg
 
It has been recommended that I move a number of resource URLs, Photos, and Posts about this boat type that I have been trying to gather information, photos, illustrations, archeological papers, etc. . . in order to scratch build one that conforms as best as current understanding provides. There are some inaccurate images and attributes to this era and type of boat that are incorrect and that I want to avoid. For any Freemasons, they will recognize my interest in this particular ship and will be donated to my lodge. Hopefully we can get things transferred from the YQ Bluenose thread and elsewhere from prior postings to this thread. Thanks for your prior assistance and what you may add to this endeavor. Rich (PT-2)View attachment 250814View attachment 250815View attachment 250816View attachment 250817View attachment 250820
The clay boats are from archeological finds and provide information that in semi-buried recovery of wood hull frames and planking provide most of what is presently known as almost everything about the boats themselves rotted away and what we now visualize is largely speculative. These came from various sources and I'll try to recover and embed the links separately with some help from Zolly. Rich (PT-2)View attachment 250827 This one and some following are View attachment 250829from a currently build reconstruction/reenactment.
View attachment 250828
Here is a link to the explanation of an interactive display with embedded photos that add to the data bank. actually not a link but a Topic Title to paste into Google or elsewhere to see the document.
PHOENICIAN EXPLANATION: EXAMINATION OF PUBLIC INTERPRETATION FOR THE BAJO DE LA CAMPANA SHIPWRECK EXCAVATION
Rich
 
Here is a link to the explanation of an interactive display with embedded photos that add to the data bank. actually not a link but a Topic Title to paste into Google or elsewhere to see the document.
PHOENICIAN EXPLANATION: EXAMINATION OF PUBLIC INTERPRETATION FOR THE BAJO DE LA CAMPANA SHIPWRECK EXCAVATION
Rich
Here is a link to a showing of the contemporary boat
Rich
 
@zoly99sask Hi Zoly. This is @PT-2 Rich's thread. I simply provided him with help and suggested that HE starts a new thread. I will help where I can with info, but that is the sum total of my interest.
 
I am sorry that it came across as a "Told Me'" instead of a request. Bad grammar on my part. Rich
I made in the reason section when I moved that it was requested,here is my fault the way I composed my sentence ,I am assuming that Heinrich does not know why I moved his post here Lol,not big deal I can shuffle these posts all around or I can change his post that will look like you posted it ,I can change the username too,just let me know.
 
I made in the reason section when I moved that it was requested,here is my fault the way I composed my sentence ,I am assuming that Heinrich does not know why I moved his post here Lol,not big deal I can shuffle these posts all around or I can change his post that will look like you posted it ,I can change the username too,just let me know.
Shuffling posts like shuffling cards is all in the dealer's hands. I would assume that he would have no objection and give him credit for the resources that he placed on my deck. Thanks. Rich
 
@zoly99sask @PT-2 Absolutely Guys! ROTF It has to be in Rich''s name. My intention was that if Rich started a new and independent thread, HE (Rich) would possibly get a better response. I honestly don't care about any credit - I just wanted to help Rich! Thank you!
 
Shuffling posts like shuffling cards is all in the dealer's hands. I would assume that he would have no objection and give him credit for the resources that he placed on my deck. Thanks. Rich
@zoly99sask @PT-2 Absolutely Guys! ROTF It has to be in Rich''s name. My intention was that if Rich started a new and independent thread, HE (Rich) would possibly get a better response. I honestly don't care about any credit - I just wanted to help Rich! Thank you!
You certainly did help in significant way. Thanks. Rich
 
This link hopefully opens or leads to a long article that is worth considering for possible speculated Phonecian trans-Atlantic ventures:
Transatlantic crossing: Did Phoenicians beat Columbus by 2000 years?
By Sheena McKenzie, for CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/28/world/americas/phoenician-christopher-columbus-america-sailboat/index.html?iref=allsearch

Thu February 28, 2013
Rich (PT-2)
Well without the unanticipated tag end commercials ad infinitum here is the basic text:
(CNN) -- Christopher Columbus has long been the poster boy Renaissance explorer who found fame and fortune by sailing from the Old World to the New.
Crossing the great unknown waters between Spain and the Caribbean in 1492, he became one of the most renowned -- and pivotal -- Europeans to set foot in America.
But more than five centuries later, a British adventurer plans to show that the New World could have been reached by another seafaring nation 2,000 years before Columbus.
Former Royal Navy officer Philip Beale hopes to sail a replica Phoenician boat 10,000 kilometers across the Atlantic in an ambitious voyage that could challenge maritime history.
Expedition leader Philip Beale.By completing the journey, Beale aims to demonstrate that the Phoenicians -- the ancient Mediterranean civilization that prospered from 1500BC to 300BC -- had the capability to sail to the U.S.; a theory disputed by historians.
"It is one of the greatest voyages of mankind and if anyone could have done it [before Columbus], it was the Phoenicians," said Beale.
"Of all the ancient civilizations they were the greatest seafarers -- Lebanon had cedar trees perfect for building strong boats, they were the first to use iron nails, and they had knowledge of astrology and currents."
Read: Adventurers recreate 'greatest survival story' of the Antarctic
The new home of sailing?
Best sailors of 2012 crowned
Top Olympic sailor embraces new venture The prospect of sailing a 50-ton wooden vessel identical to those built 2,600 years ago across the Atlantic might appear foolhardy, had Beale not already challenged maritime history two years ago.
Beale sailed the replica boat -- aptly named The Phoenician -- around Africa in 2010, in a bid to demonstrate the ancient civilization had the capability to circumnavigate the continent 2,000 years before the first recorded European; Bartolomeu Dias, in 1488.
Setting sail from Syria in 2008, The Phoenician covered 32,000 kilometers over two years, battling everything from six-meter waves off the Cape of Good Hope to Somali pirates.
"We had run the gauntlet of pirate-infested waters, overcome numerous technical problems and traveled deep into the Indian and Atlantic Oceans," Beale says in a new book on the incredible voyage; 'Sailing Close to the Wind.'
"I had proved she was an ocean-going vessel and when she was coasting along the waves, her sail billowing in the wind; to captain her had been an unforgettable experience."
Beale based his ambitious quest on a quote by Greek Historian Herodotus, who claimed the Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa in 600BC.
Along with their sophisticated seafaring skills, the Phoenicians were renowned as an intellectual and industrious civilization who helped develop the alphabet we still use today.
Highly skilled in metalwork, ivory carving and glass-making, the name Phoenician derives from the iconic purple color they used to dye their superior textiles.
Dr Julian Whitewright, maritime archaeologist at the University of Southampton, added that a Phoenician voyage around Africa was "quite a plausible undertaking, based on the capabilities of the vessel of the period and historical material stating it took place."
Read: Are traditional sailboats the future of trade?
The boat was modeled on an ancient 19-meter Phoenician shipwreck excavated off the coast of Marseille. Using locally-sourced materials, shipbuilders stayed true to the original down to the exact thickness of the planks and position of the mast.
The crew of volunteers ranged from six to 15 people at any time, with 53 sailors from 14 different countries taking part over the entire journey.
It is one of the greatest voyages of mankind and if anyone could have done it, it was the Phoenicians
Philip Beale"We didn't have any mechanical winches and the anchor had to be pulled up and down by hand -- it was back-breaking work," Beale said.
"There was just one traditional toilet which dropped straight into the ocean, so you literally had to step out on the side of the boat to use it. When you had big waves coming at you in the middle of the night it could be quite scary. But at least there was no cleaning."Read: Arctic vagabonds -- French family makes home on polar yacht
The final leg of the journey took them wide out across the Atlantic and a mere 965 kilometers off the coast of Florida. It was here Beale got his inspiration for the journey to the U.S.
"Archeologists have found Egyptian mummies with traces of tobacco and cocaine which could only have come from the New World," Beale said. "It indicates there was something going on across the Atlantic."
Dr Mark McMenamin, professor of geology at Holyoke College, also points to evidence of Phoenician coins bearing maps of the Old and New World. He said copper coins with Phoenician iconography have also also been discovered in North America. "The available evidence suggests that the Carthaginians (the western tribe of the Phoenicians) had the ability to cross the Atlantic at will," he said.
Many historians however, remain doubtful. "If the Phoenicians got to England -- which we think they did -- I wouldn't be surprised if the boat could get to America physically. But whether they could have done it without running out of food is a different matter," maritime historian Sam Willis said. There's plenty of solid archeological proof the vikings got to America
Historian Sam Willis"If you're circumnavigating Africa you can always stop along the way. But you can't when you're going to America -- it's a massive stretch of sea and that's the difference."
Setting off from Tunisia, the modern-day Phoenician vessel is expected to take two to three months to reach America -- granted Beale can raise £100,000 ($156,000) for the expedition.
New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art has already invited him to display the boat as part of their upcoming exhibition on the Phoenicians, opening in September 2014.
"The conventional wisdom is that Christopher Columbus discovered America. But anyone who looks a little closer will see the Vikings were there around 900AD. They've found Viking settlements in Newfoundland, it's undisputed," Beale said."So Columbus was definitely second -- at best. I put forward the theory that the Phoenicians could have been first and I hope to prove that was the case."
Rich
 
Well without the unanticipated tag end commercials ad infinitum here is the basic text:
(CNN) -- Christopher Columbus has long been the poster boy Renaissance explorer who found fame and fortune by sailing from the Old World to the New.
Crossing the great unknown waters between Spain and the Caribbean in 1492, he became one of the most renowned -- and pivotal -- Europeans to set foot in America.
But more than five centuries later, a British adventurer plans to show that the New World could have been reached by another seafaring nation 2,000 years before Columbus.
Former Royal Navy officer Philip Beale hopes to sail a replica Phoenician boat 10,000 kilometers across the Atlantic in an ambitious voyage that could challenge maritime history.
Expedition leader Philip Beale.By completing the journey, Beale aims to demonstrate that the Phoenicians -- the ancient Mediterranean civilization that prospered from 1500BC to 300BC -- had the capability to sail to the U.S.; a theory disputed by historians.
"It is one of the greatest voyages of mankind and if anyone could have done it [before Columbus], it was the Phoenicians," said Beale.
"Of all the ancient civilizations they were the greatest seafarers -- Lebanon had cedar trees perfect for building strong boats, they were the first to use iron nails, and they had knowledge of astrology and currents."
Read: Adventurers recreate 'greatest survival story' of the Antarctic
The new home of sailing?
Best sailors of 2012 crowned
Top Olympic sailor embraces new venture The prospect of sailing a 50-ton wooden vessel identical to those built 2,600 years ago across the Atlantic might appear foolhardy, had Beale not already challenged maritime history two years ago.
Beale sailed the replica boat -- aptly named The Phoenician -- around Africa in 2010, in a bid to demonstrate the ancient civilization had the capability to circumnavigate the continent 2,000 years before the first recorded European; Bartolomeu Dias, in 1488.
Setting sail from Syria in 2008, The Phoenician covered 32,000 kilometers over two years, battling everything from six-meter waves off the Cape of Good Hope to Somali pirates.
"We had run the gauntlet of pirate-infested waters, overcome numerous technical problems and traveled deep into the Indian and Atlantic Oceans," Beale says in a new book on the incredible voyage; 'Sailing Close to the Wind.'
"I had proved she was an ocean-going vessel and when she was coasting along the waves, her sail billowing in the wind; to captain her had been an unforgettable experience."
Beale based his ambitious quest on a quote by Greek Historian Herodotus, who claimed the Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa in 600BC.
Along with their sophisticated seafaring skills, the Phoenicians were renowned as an intellectual and industrious civilization who helped develop the alphabet we still use today.
Highly skilled in metalwork, ivory carving and glass-making, the name Phoenician derives from the iconic purple color they used to dye their superior textiles.
Dr Julian Whitewright, maritime archaeologist at the University of Southampton, added that a Phoenician voyage around Africa was "quite a plausible undertaking, based on the capabilities of the vessel of the period and historical material stating it took place."
Read: Are traditional sailboats the future of trade?
The boat was modeled on an ancient 19-meter Phoenician shipwreck excavated off the coast of Marseille. Using locally-sourced materials, shipbuilders stayed true to the original down to the exact thickness of the planks and position of the mast.
The crew of volunteers ranged from six to 15 people at any time, with 53 sailors from 14 different countries taking part over the entire journey.
It is one of the greatest voyages of mankind and if anyone could have done it, it was the Phoenicians
Philip Beale"We didn't have any mechanical winches and the anchor had to be pulled up and down by hand -- it was back-breaking work," Beale said.
"There was just one traditional toilet which dropped straight into the ocean, so you literally had to step out on the side of the boat to use it. When you had big waves coming at you in the middle of the night it could be quite scary. But at least there was no cleaning."Read: Arctic vagabonds -- French family makes home on polar yacht
The final leg of the journey took them wide out across the Atlantic and a mere 965 kilometers off the coast of Florida. It was here Beale got his inspiration for the journey to the U.S.
"Archeologists have found Egyptian mummies with traces of tobacco and cocaine which could only have come from the New World," Beale said. "It indicates there was something going on across the Atlantic."
Dr Mark McMenamin, professor of geology at Holyoke College, also points to evidence of Phoenician coins bearing maps of the Old and New World. He said copper coins with Phoenician iconography have also also been discovered in North America. "The available evidence suggests that the Carthaginians (the western tribe of the Phoenicians) had the ability to cross the Atlantic at will," he said.
Many historians however, remain doubtful. "If the Phoenicians got to England -- which we think they did -- I wouldn't be surprised if the boat could get to America physically. But whether they could have done it without running out of food is a different matter," maritime historian Sam Willis said. There's plenty of solid archeological proof the vikings got to America
Historian Sam Willis"If you're circumnavigating Africa you can always stop along the way. But you can't when you're going to America -- it's a massive stretch of sea and that's the difference."
Setting off from Tunisia, the modern-day Phoenician vessel is expected to take two to three months to reach America -- granted Beale can raise £100,000 ($156,000) for the expedition.
New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art has already invited him to display the boat as part of their upcoming exhibition on the Phoenicians, opening in September 2014.
"The conventional wisdom is that Christopher Columbus discovered America. But anyone who looks a little closer will see the Vikings were there around 900AD. They've found Viking settlements in Newfoundland, it's undisputed," Beale said."So Columbus was definitely second -- at best. I put forward the theory that the Phoenicians could have been first and I hope to prove that was the case."
Rich
Here is a YouTube item covering the expansive sea trading routes of the ancient Phoenecians. You will have to skip through a couple of commercials up front before the presentation opens.
Rich (PT-2)
 
It has been recommended that I move a number of resource URLs, Photos, and Posts about this boat type that I have been trying to gather information, photos, illustrations, archeological papers, etc. . . in order to scratch build one that conforms as best as current understanding provides. There are some inaccurate images and attributes to this era and type of boat that are incorrect and that I want to avoid. For any Freemasons, they will recognize my interest in this particular ship and will be donated to my lodge. Hopefully we can get things transferred from the YQ Bluenose thread and elsewhere from prior postings to this thread. Thanks for your prior assistance and what you may add to this endeavor. Rich (PT-2)View attachment 250814View attachment 250815View attachment 250816View attachment 250817View attachment 250820
The clay boats are from archeological finds and provide information that in semi-buried recovery of wood hull frames and planking provide most of what is presently known as almost everything about the boats themselves rotted away and what we now visualize is largely speculative. These came from various sources and I'll try to recover and embed the links separately with some help from Zolly. Rich (PT-2)View attachment 250827 This one and some following are View attachment 250829from a currently build reconstruction/reenactment.
View attachment 250828
From the archeological clay model boats it seems that our present hobby has ancestor a couple of thousand years BC. I wonder what the intention and use was of those clay boats? Too small for ship burials as the Vikings later embodied with full sized ships. I will have to do some searching for an answer or speculation on that. Rich (PT-2)
 
@PT-2 Rich, in my humble opinion, you have to pinpoint your objectives from the outset. If the goal is to gather as much as possible information on Phoenician ships per se, then by all means research the clay models ad infinitum.

However, if your goal is to build a wooden model of a Phoenician vessel, the time that it takes you to do research on the clay models, could have been much more productively spent. this the kind of topic that can get you bogged down into a quagmire of speculation of never-ending "what-ifs". I have seen many a scratch-build researched to "death" on SOS - only for the actual model never to be built.

I would try to my utmost to make contact with Philip Beale, a lifelong sailor and the leader of the project called The Phoenician Ship Expedition, and get as much real-life information from him as you can possibly can. If your ultimate goal is to build a model, ten I believe, this is where you should look.

I think you have a great modelling subject here and it would be a great pity if it doesn't come to fruition in the form of a completed model. Just my two cents ...
 
@PT-2 Rich, in my humble opinion, you have to pinpoint your objectives from the outset. If the goal is to gather as much as possible information on Phoenician ships per se, then by all means research the clay models ad infinitum.

However, if your goal is to build a wooden model of a Phoenician vessel, the time that it takes you to do research on the clay models, could have been much more productively spent. this the kind of topic that can get you bogged down into a quagmire of speculation of never-ending "what-ifs". I have seen many a scratch-build researched to "death" on SOS - only for the actual model never to be built.

I would try to my utmost to make contact with Philip Beale, a lifelong sailor and the leader of the project called The Phoenician Ship Expedition, and get as much real-life information from him as you can possibly can. If your ultimate goal is to build a model, ten I believe, this is where you should look.

I think you have a great modelling subject here and it would be a great pity if it doesn't come to fruition in the form of a completed model. Just my two cents ...
I have ordered plans for the build and am by nature filling my time between glue sets on the BN by doing this background study. I have always tried to gain as much insight and understanding as feasible with whatever I do. In this case the time is not wasted as I don't even know at this point the lumber stock that I will need which has to come before any build start. The second step will be to understand the plans and construction to actually begin which the wood in hand. I respect your comments and concern. Who knows there may be others who also take an interest and can tag into the gathered resources in the same manner that a thread for YQ BN was initiated by me which other group members seem to have delved into. My curiosity with the clay models is in their differences from all of the assumed and the example contemporary boat that you mention and I have seen on the internet as well as the static models on display.
I think that your own interest in background information was also shown in your lengthy commentary, much appreciated, on the high-new sampan which in its own way I see as similar to my own interests and am looking forward to "laying the keel". Rich
 
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