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Can These Cannon Be Loaded?

C

CumbrianLad

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Jan 29, 2022
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Cumbria, that's in England.
Hi.

I was planning the next stage of my San Francisco II galleon and started wondering about the cannon and weather deck layout. I can't see how the 4 wheeled cannon supplied with the kit could be reloaded. I've attached a photo. The 2 cannon on the afterdeck would touch the small companion before the muzzle was clear of the gun ports. On the main deck it's a bit better.

I was firstly wondering if the cannon supplied with the kit are too big for the ship. They are 35mm long, so 3.15 metres in real life. I am aware that Spanish galleons of the 16th century tended to use 2 wheeled gun carriages and iron cannon. The San Francisco, though, may have had 4 wheeled carriages and brass cannon.

The only way I can see to load the guns on the after deck would be to rotate them and with a 4 wheeled carriage, that would be hard, to say the least.

I guess I'm stuck with it now, whatever the answer, though I could buy some smaller cannon kits in wood and metal that might look more reasonable.Cannon Problem.jpg
 
forget about reloading the cannon the recoil alone would bash into the companion way, nor could you work the cannon rigging. You are correct about reloading the cannon it can not be done.

This sort of thing has been an issue with kits for as long as kits have been around. Manufactures will use a limited number of guns and fittings for their entire line of kits, rather than make guns to fit each kit.
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
forget about reloading the cannon the recoil alone would bash into the companion way, nor could you work the cannon rigging. You are correct about reloading the cannon it can not be done.

This sort of thing has been an issue with kits for as long as kits have been around. Manufactures will use a limited number of guns and fittings for their entire line of kits, rather than make guns to fit each kit.
Click to expand...
As I thought. As a workaround, I'll look into smaller cannon made from wood and metal. 20 to 25 mm seems to fit much better (1.8m to 2.25m full size). I also wondered about cannon rigging. My kit is an intermediate level and lots of stuff is missing, including tackle for hauling the cannon around. I won't be able to get it perfect, but at least it'll be a touch more realistic.

I'm adding internal details, so I'll need more cannon anyway. Smaller ones will work better for the lower decks, too. I'll then see if I can get blocks and rigging in for the cannon. As I say, it won't be perfect, but I'll have to compromise.

Thanks for your reply confirming what I only guessed.
 
CumbrianLad said:
The only way I can see to load the guns on the after deck would be to rotate them and with a 4 wheeled carriage, that would be hard, to say the least.
Click to expand...
Just FYI, not all reloading was done when the gun run out. it is well known and in fact, reloading of muzzle-loading cannons is done thru the gun ports.

The Operation, Firing and Reloading of Cannons

Does anyone know of any video links/re-enactments that reveal how 18th century shipboard cannons would have been loaded, fired, re-loaded and fired again? I'd like to see all the actions, motions, and needful operations being performed, in real time, using such cannons.
modelshipworld.com modelshipworld.com
 
Jimsky said:
Just FYI, not all reloading was done when the gun run out. it is well known and in fact, reloading of muzzle-loading cannons is done thru the gun ports.

The Operation, Firing and Reloading of Cannons

Does anyone know of any video links/re-enactments that reveal how 18th century shipboard cannons would have been loaded, fired, re-loaded and fired again? I'd like to see all the actions, motions, and needful operations being performed, in real time, using such cannons.
modelshipworld.com modelshipworld.com
Click to expand...
Great demonstration!
 
On a small scale ship if you don't have stock and room for full rigging of a cannon, just add a breach line to back of cannon and to deck or bulkhead as the original used, most folks wouldn't know anything was missing unless you told them.

As for oversized guns, unless your building for competition judging or admission to a museum display, it doesn't really matter if the guns are a bit oversize.
 
Jimsky said:
Just FYI, not all reloading was done when the gun run out. it is well known and in fact, reloading of muzzle-loading cannons is done thru the gun ports.

The Operation, Firing and Reloading of Cannons

Does anyone know of any video links/re-enactments that reveal how 18th century shipboard cannons would have been loaded, fired, re-loaded and fired again? I'd like to see all the actions, motions, and needful operations being performed, in real time, using such cannons.
modelshipworld.com modelshipworld.com
Click to expand...
That's great. The video also gives me details of the rigging. It answers some other questions I'd have been asking later, too, now that I've seen a real layout. The cannon supplied are still too big for that companion, but I've ordered new cannon anyway. I'll be putting larger cannon on the main gundeck (but still slightly smaller than those supplied with the kit). Cannon slightly smaller again will be on the higher decks.
DARIVS ARCHITECTVS said:
Older galleons had breech loaded guns. The breech plug was locked similar to the land artillery pieces shown below. Perhaps SF II had similar guns early in its career. The size of the guns and the size of the helmsman's companion may be out of proportion on the model.

View attachment 293966

View attachment 293969

View attachment 293968
Click to expand...

The only article I've found on the ship quotes research by another model maker, done extensively when making the same model. He found only one reference to the weaponry carried on San Francisco. It stated that she carried 52 modern 'brass' guns, as recorded by visiting captains and admirals. I haven't tried to verify the references and doubt that I'll unearth anything new. I'm going muzzle loaded brass, for lack of any more to the contrary.

Thanks for the info, though. I find all of this fascinating.
 
If it is this one 70guns from 1695) , there are some more information

1646224380803.png

699Broadside Weight = 444 Spanish libre (479.076 lbs 203.796 kg)
Lower Gun Deck - 24 Spanish 18-Pounder
Upper Gun Deck - 22 Spanish 12-Pounder
Quarterdeck/Forecastle - 16 Spanish 12-Pounder

Spanish Third Rate galleon 'San Francisco' (1695)

Spanish Third Rate galleon 'San Francisco' (1695). Dates of service, name changes, previous and next incarnations, dimensions, armament, commanders, officers and crewmen, actions, battles, sources
threedecks.org
 
Thanks Uwek. I found that and thought I had it, but that ship was built much later. The ship the miodel depicts is the 'SanFrancisco De Florencia' and took part in the Spanish Armada in 1588. It turns out that there were several 'San Francisco' galleons. I couldn't find mine on that site. It's a good place to search, though.
 
Even though the french had "modern" loading technics by pullingh the guns in at times of Hermione, this picture of repairs shows the acrobatics nescesairy ;-)

XXXDAn
Rohrsitzer.jpg
 
And also never forget the era SF was in, do not judge her by the 1700 style of guns and sizes. This one is a contemporary gun on a replica carriage. For some reasons it does not meet with our normal expetations.

Do not know why ...

;-)

XXXDAn

post-12251-0-36262600-1396720912_thumb.jpg
 
Frank48, I'd always imagined these things just being used for broadsides, not 'pointed', as in that first diagram. Hauling the guns around with tackle like that would make a right mess of the deck planks, let alone the stress it would put on the carriage wheels and axles. Handy rigging diagrams.
 
There are plenty of battle reports, where the guns had to be pointed at a very sharp angle, if the ships were stuck or on the anchor. Most of the time only a part of the guns could be employed then, as the angle always gets sharper amidships as for the curve of the hull, thus making it impossible to shoot. And at these moments I do believe nobody really cared for the deck´s planks :)

XXXDAn
 
@Frank48 Thank you very much for the diagrams. Very interesting ones. Do you know the source?

But care has to be taken, those guns are quite modern ones, seen by the form of the barrel and the size 42/57 ctw.

I do remember that the guns for the Royal Navy were only quite late supplied with three tackles. They used to have only two ones and one had to be shifted from side to back regarding the circumstances.

So the SR was much sooner and I have no idea how the Spanish handled that topic.

XXXDAn
 
dafi said:
@Frank48 Thank you very much for the diagrams. Very interesting ones. Do you know the source?

But care has to be taken, those guns are quite modern ones, seen by the form of the barrel and the size 42/57 ctw.

I do remember that the guns for the Royal Navy were only quite late supplied with three tackles. They used to have only two ones and one had to be shifted from side to back regarding the circumstances.

So the SR was much sooner and I have no idea how the Spanish handled that topic.

XXXDAn
Click to expand...
Good evening dafi, give me some time to update you
 
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