colour doubt

[antonivs_01]

I have a question about the colour of the hull, above the waterline, it is black, I have found naval paintings with that paint scheme, but the hull underneath I don't know what colour it is, I understand that the plates are copper, and the colour would be copper but in most sources, books and representations, the colour of the hull is red, could be painted red
? I have seen ships from the period between 1860-1870 with red hulls. for example british ships like HMS Warrior or wood corvettes for this period, most spanish ships like Numancia were her hulls red ,the French Le Glorie....

 

[AllanKP69]

Antonius,
What year, nation, is the ship you are modeling? Before the bottoms were coppered they were painted with a tallow mixture so an off white was the color until coppering came into use in the second half of the 18th century in the Royal Navy. It may have been a bit different timing for other nations. Metal hulls were painted with anti fouling paint that protected the metal from corrosion plus it sloughed off so barnacles and other growth was minimized. These paints could be different colors depending on the formula, but red oxide was common so red was not unusual.
Allan

 

[antonivs_01]

Ohh sorry, I'm painting the CSS Alabama, but I've seen that many ships british, spanish and french from that time between 1860-1870, made of wood and covered with copper, were painted red

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

the red paint on ships goes way back to farmers who painted their barns red.

linseed oil, a natural sealant was mixed with lime and rust ( ferrous oxide ) which turned the mixture to a dark orange, burnt red color. Ferrous oxide acts as a wood preservative and killed fungi and mold that rotted wood.

what came first the shipwrights painting ships red or farmers painting barns red?

 

[Smithy]

I believe that paintings, artworks of ships which colour the underwater hull red are representing the copper sheathing.

 

[antonivs_01]

Thanks to both of you for answering me, Dave, I didn't know the story of the farmers, very interesting of course, with respect to Smithy, I think that many ships covered in copper were then painted red,


This is a image from internet, represents The Cutty Sark, she was a composite ship, her bottom hull is red, but she has a covered copper hull. Unknown date



This is another image from internet, in this case two wooden coppered screw spanish frigates: Villa de Madrid and Blanca, in the abtao battle, 7 of August of 1866, the painting shows what may be the red color of the hull.

 

[Roger Pellett]

Alabama was built in a British shipyard and outfitted for lengthy service without access to friendly dockyards. She would have been copper sheathed, paid for with Confederate cotton exports. There has been much ink spilled on this and other model ship forums about the color of copper sheathing after it has been in service. The consensus seems to be that it is no longer shiny but more of a reddish brown color. Areas at or above the load waterline would show the familiar green patina.

So, you could paint it with a true copper color, showing her as a new vessel, or brown tinted slightly red as she would appear in service. If your painting skills allow, you could add vertigris green in areas at the air water interface.

To add to Dave’s barn story, red oxide paint, better known as barn red is still widely used as an industrial paint, probably because it’s cheap. Specifications for prefabricated piping and structural steel often specify it as a temporary coating for protection while awaiting erection in the field. It is also a popular color for painting the hulls of merchant ships, particularly Great Lakes vessels in the iron ore trades. There does not appear to be any color standard for this paint. Colors can range from rust brown to almost bright red. Back before I retired, a gallon of one of the hi-tech primers like inorganic zinc cost about $40. A gallon of red oxide primer from a local paint manufacturer $14.

Roger

 

[antonivs_01]

Roger, thank you very much for the very thorough answer, it explains the green colour of the copper when it oxidizes, which many people think was the colour of the original hull or the red-brown color when it ages underwater, that explains why many paintings show the ships with the bottom hull painted in red.

 

[AllanKP69]

The consensus seems to be that it is no longer shiny but more of a reddish brown color.

Hi Roger,
I know you and other members have seen this before, but in case Anthony has not, the copper sheathing from the USS Constitution can be seen in the first below. Another few examples follow that were oxidized in air rather than salt water. From what I can find there is a time factor involved in the color. Found this in a quick search........ Copper initially turns brown when exposed to air due to the formation of a thin layer of copper oxide on its surface which is a natural oxidation process; this brown layer acts as a protective barrier against further corrosion, and only when this initial oxide layer reacts with airborne sulfur compounds like sulfur dioxide <which is present in seawater as well> in moist environments does the characteristic green patina develop over time
Allan

 

[antonivs_01]

Hello Allan, thank you very much for the information, the image is very interesting, where the copper plates are removed, it looks like the rudder area I had never seen the process, I did not know that the Statue of Liberty had copper, I thought that Both the structure and the coating were made of iron.

 

[AllanKP69]

I did not know that the Statue of Liberty had copper,

31 tons of it!!!! Obviously hollow but very tight inside but back in the day we did walk the stairs all the way up.
Allan

 

[antonivs_01]

31 tons is something admirable. I don't want to imagine how the plates were fixed at that time, which brings me to the question.

What colour was the statue then? copper?? or the current one is a coating paint?


I remember the statue from the movie Ghostbusters, in the movie the statue was hollow, and you could climb it, I didn't know that in reality people climbed inside it, I imagined it was hollow but not that it had stairs.

 

[AndyA]

31 tons is something admirable. I don't want to imagine how the plates were fixed at that time, which brings me to the question.

What colour was the statue then? copper?? or the current one is a coating paint?


I remember the statue from the movie Ghostbusters, in the movie the statue was hollow, and you could climb it, I didn't know that in reality people climbed inside it, I imagined it was hollow but not that it had stairs.

Lady Liberty's skin is copper with the separate plates riveted together. Her color is verdigris due to the weathering of the surface of the copper producing various salts of copper, which range in color from green to bluish green. Originally, the skin was supported by an internal truss armature of iron. The armature was corroding because of galvanic action so a renovation was carried out between 1982 and 1986. The iron of the armature was replaced with stainless steel along with other repairs. I have had the pleasure of climbing within the statue a few times as well as paddling and sailing nearby. First picture was taken just south of Liberty Island looking SE with Brooklyn and the Verrazano Narrows Bridge in the background. Kayakers (including me in my skin-on-frame boat) were escorting swimmers from there to Manhattan. Second picture is looking SW at Liberty Island and my Sea Bright skiff. Fair winds!

 

[Roger Pellett]

The Statue of Liberty is huge! It stands on an island in the middle of New York City’ s large harbor. My daughter lives in Brooklyn, well up the East River that borders one side of the island of Manhattan. The Statue is easily visible from the river front near where she lives. It was built in France, and given as a gift to the American people. I seem to remember that at one time one could even climb up the inside of the raised arm to stand by the torch. I believe today that visitors can only climb to her crown. The windows are visible in the picture that Allan posted. The green color is not paint. It is a result of the natural weathering that Allan describes above. There are pictures of major parts of the statue sitting in France prior to shipment. I suspect that it was already “green” upon arrival in New York. The statue’s copper skin is supported by an iron frame. My guess is that the whole thing is held together with copper and iron rivets.

My first job exUS Navy was involved in the engineering of prefabricated piping assemblies for civilian nuclear power plants. This involved a lot of stainless steel piping. Stainless steel is made “stainless” by a mechanism similar to the one that Allan describes. During the manufacturing process, the material is first cleaned by a very strong acid solution. Then it is again chemically treated to form a tough corrosion film giving it its dull grey color. This same mechanism is used to treat other materials such as Aluminum.

Roger

 

[antonivs_01]

Thank you both very much for the explanation, you never stop learning things! ^^, I did not know that its iron structure had been removed and replaced, I knew about the corrosion of copper and iron as well as the steel process, from the engineering that I studied many years ago, but I always assumed that the The hull of the ships was red, due to the paints that were applied to protect the iron or steel from corrosion and oxidation.

 

[Van]

Lady Liberty's skin is copper with the separate plates riveted together. Her color is verdigris due to the weathering of the surface of the copper producing various salts of copper, which range in color from green to bluish green. Originally, the skin was supported by an internal truss armature of iron. The armature was corroding because of galvanic action so a renovation was carried out between 1982 and 1986. The iron of the armature was replaced with stainless steel along with other repairs. I have had the pleasure of climbing within the statue a few times as well as paddling and sailing nearby. First picture was taken just south of Liberty Island looking SE with Brooklyn and the Verrazano Narrows Bridge in the background. Kayakers (including me in my skin-on-frame boat) were escorting swimmers from there to Manhattan. Second picture is looking SW at Liberty Island and my Sea Bright skiff. Fair winds!

View attachment 483681View attachment 483682

Lady Liberty's skin is copper with the separate plates riveted together. Her color is verdigris due to the weathering of the surface of the copper producing various salts of copper, which range in color from green to bluish green. Originally, the skin was supported by an internal truss armature of iron. The armature was corroding because of galvanic action so a renovation was carried out between 1982 and 1986. The iron of the armature was replaced with stainless steel along with other repairs. I have had the pleasure of climbing within the statue a few times as well as paddling and sailing nearby. First picture was taken just south of Liberty Island looking SE with Brooklyn and the Verrazano Narrows Bridge in the background. Kayakers (including me in my skin-on-frame boat) were escorting swimmers from there to Manhattan. Second picture is looking SW at Liberty Island and my Sea Bright skiff. Fair winds!

View attachment 483681View attachment 483682

I kayaked around Manhattan several times. When putting in from Liberty Island we'd have a quick visit from the Coast Guard to see what we were doing. If you climb into the crown you should be prepared to go at the pace of the slowest climber. My grandparents said that a long time ago you could climb into the torch. There's a smaller (but still large) statue of liberty at the foot of Swan Island in the Seine.