Gun port lids, were they held with one or two ropes?

[DusFirmin]

Hi, this is my fist post here so I hope I placed it in the right category. I am working on the Heller le Soleil Royal and I am working on the gun ports. I want to make it a somewhat accurate model and I was going to put 2 holes in the lids for 2 ropes. But with every little thing I want to do I first want to do some research. and I came across several ships that had 1 rope for the lids but also some that were secured with 2 ropes. For example:

the Victory has her lids secured with 2 ropes


but the vasa has her lids secured with just one


can someone help me understand why? May its just obvious like the time period or just different country's.

 

[Uwek]

I guess it was depending of the total weight of the lid and how many crew members were available to handle the lids.
I think the lids of the later Victory, with all their "woodenwalls"-protection was much heavier than at the Vasa.
For two ropes you need defintely two seaman pulling in the same time.

But let us see the lids of the Soleil Royal - on this contemporary painting only one rope is shown

Book review - THE SUN KING´S VESSELS / VAISSEAUX DU ROI SOLEIL" by J.C. Lemineur

Book Review: THE SUN KING´S VESSELS / THE SHIPS OF THE SUN KING french original title: VAISSEAUX DU ROI SOLEIL by J.C. Lemineur translated by Francois Fougerat available in the original french edition, or in english or italian language - My copy is the english version The author presents...

shipsofscale.com

Also our member @Hubac’s Historian has prepared only one rope on his model

Soleil Royal by Heller - an Extensive Modification and Partial Scratch-Build by Hubac’s Historian

Hello, Ships of Scale! My name is Marc LaGuardia, and for the past three years, I have been extensively bashing the Heller kit in an effort to transform it into what I believe is her re-fit appearance of 1689. The project exists in its entirely, here at Model Ship World...

shipsofscale.com

 

[Uwek]

and by the way:
I would like to send you a warm welcome here on board of our forum

 

[DusFirmin]

Thank you Uwek. I just looked at the Museum Model of the SR and that model also has just one eyehole

but her stern chase guns have 2 eyeholes on every lid? Does this just mean that her chase gun lids were just heavier that her other lids? and I can see how that maybe can be the case because these lids are on a way different position. What I mean is that these lids are facing the water and the lids on both sides of the ship are facing just above the horizon. Same with the 2 bow chasers.

 

[Don Case]

Just looking at the pictures, it looks like the Vasa's lids are thicker(heavier?) than the Victory's so the weight idea may not wash. Also, because the ropes are initially at about 90 degrees to the lids I would expect that they pushed the lid partially open with a stick and then pulled the ropes so it looks like a two man anyway.

 

[Thomas]

Interesting question. Most model kits I've done have two ropes and I always took it for granted they had done some research when they designed the kit. I would think that if you were a gun crew you'd want to get the ports opened as soon as possible so if one rope would do the job, that would be standard?

 

[wmgrimball]

Ancillary question: Once the lid was opened, how were the lines tied down on the inside?

 

[DocBlake]

Ancillary question: Once the lid was opened, how were the lines tied down on the inside?

The end of the line was belayed to a cleat on a deck beam or carling above.

 

[wmgrimball]

Thanks. What now seems obvious was puzzling before.

 

[DusFirmin]

Interesting question. Most model kits I've done have two ropes and I always took it for granted they had done some research when they designed the kit. I would think that if you were a gun crew you'd want to get the ports opened as soon as possible so if one rope would do the job, that would be standard?

that is an interesting point. Only thing is why would Hms Victory have 2 ropes for every lid? She is a warship so I would assume It would be useful in her case to just have one if it was faster.

I was looking in to this and I saw a picture of the Batavia, a Dutch trade ship. And her lids also just have one eyehole:


and for the people who say"she is build in 1985". The shipbuilders wanted to build an accurate replica so nothing was done just like that. Also different sketches from Dutch ships shows also one eyehole

 

[Uwek]

I am still convinced, that the weight of the lids of the fighting HMS Victory and the warships of this time period were much heavier, than the earlier ships like the Vasa, Batavia etc.
It was the time period of "woodenwalls" means the protection against gunballs was the wood of framing and planking.

This is a typical cross section of such a ship of the line of this time


So the lid was constructed by two layers
The red arrow shows the horizontal laying timbers which folled the hull planking. the size was exactly the size of the opening in the planking. The closed lid was butt exactly with the so called stops or port lining.
The green arrow shows the inner second sandwich layer of timber (which was nailed in 90° against to outer layer # ). this layer was slightly smaller and fitted inside the port lining.

The lids on todays HMS Viuctory, which you can see on photos are in my opinion not the real lids when the Victory was really sailing (and fighting). It seem, that the (green arrow) layer is missing (-> but I can be wrong here )

 

[Uwek]

Ancillary question: Once the lid was opened, how were the lines tied down on the inside?

The end of the line was belayed to a cleat on a deck beam or carling above.

The before shown skecth is showing such a construction with the cleat at the beam (blue arrow)

 

[DusFirmin]

I am still convinced, that the weight of the lids of the fighting HMS Victory and the warships of this time period were much heavier, than the earlier ships like the Vasa, Batavia etc.
It was the time period of "woodenwalls" means the protection against gunballs was the wood of framing and planking.

This is a typical cross section of such a ship of the line of this time
View attachment 252107

So the lid was constructed by two layers
The red arrow shows the horizontal laying timbers which folled the hull planking. the size was exactly the size of the opening in the planking. The closed lid was butt exactly with the so called stops or port lining.
The green arrow shows the inner second sandwich layer of timber (which was nailed in 90° against to outer layer # ). this layer was slightly smaller and fitted inside the port lining.

The lids on todays HMS Viuctory, which you can see on photos are in my opinion not the real lids when the Victory was really sailing (and fighting). It seem, that the (green arrow) layer is missing (-> but I can be wrong here )
View attachment 252109

It would be logical theory. I don't really know a lot about Hms victory's small details, but what if the lids on the photo are actually the same sort lids she used in her Nelson days. Then the theory wouldn't make a lot of sense because if you look at the Vasa. She has port lining, and that second inner sandwich of planking. So does the Batavia.

But if you are right, then the theory on time comes in. That the earlier ships are lighter and so are the gunport lids. And that on later ships in the napoleonic era they are just heavier because of protection and maybe size.

 

[RogerD]

In support of @Uwek Uwe’s observations about the weight of gun port lids and the two layers (skins) and discussion on tackle arrangements.

Bugler tells us that the gun-port lids on the Victory are double skinned and “now (1965?) constructed of an outer skin of teak worked horizontally to match and conform to the outside planking and an inner teak skin of 1 1/2 ins.” However, he writes that “when fitted initially were probably constructed of English oak or English elm in two thicknesses joined together with iron spike nails and a limited number of iron clench bolts.”

All the lids were equipped with lift tackles. I have copied the lifting and holding arrangement diagram. (I trust this is not a copyright issue since I know a limited number of copies of intellectual property can be used for educational purposes).

As an interesting aside the hinged construction of the lids was such that they were strong enough, in the open position, to act as stages for “minor light work on the ship’s side”, thus not requiring the rigging of normal stages.

 

[Uwek]

In support of @Uwek Uwe’s observations about the weight of gun port lids and the two layers (skins) and discussion on tackle arrangements.

Bugler tells us that the gun-port lids on the Victory are double skinned and “now (1965?) constructed of an outer skin of teak worked horizontally to match and conform to the outside planking and an inner teak skin of 1 1/2 ins.” However, he writes that “when fitted initially were probably constructed of English oak or English elm in two thicknesses joined together with iron spike nails and a limited number of iron clench bolts.”

All the lids were equipped with lift tackles. I have copied the lifting and holding arrangement diagram. (I trust this is not a copyright issue since I know a limited number of copies of intellectual property can be used for educational purposes).

As an interesting aside the hinged construction of the lids was such that they were strong enough, in the open position, to act as stages for “minor light work on the ship’s side”, thus not requiring the rigging of normal stages.

View attachment 252144

very good find - and it is explaining a lot - Many Thanks for showing this detail to us - we learnt a lot
I have to take a closer look to my copy of the Bugler
If somebody is interested in H.M.S. VICTORY - Building, restoration & repair (2 Volume set with Text + Drawings) by Arthur Bugler , take a look here:

Book Review: "H.M.S. VICTORY - Building, restoration & repair" by Arthur Bugler (1966, 2 Volume set with Text + Drawings)

Book Review / Look Inside: H.M.S. VICTORY - Building, restoration & repair (2 Volume set with Text + Drawings) by Arthur Bugler Other Authors: Great Britain. Navy Department Published: London - Her Majesty's Stationery Office, 1966. Physical Description: 382 p., 57 p. of plates : ill...

shipsofscale.com

 

[Uwek]

Hi, this is my fist post here so I hope I placed it in the right category. I am working on the Heller le Soleil Royal and I am working on the gun ports. I want to make it a somewhat accurate model and I was going to put 2 holes in the lids for 2 ropes. But with every little thing I want to do I first want to do some research. and I came across several ships that had 1 rope for the lids but also some that were secured with 2 ropes. For example:

the Victory has her lids secured with 2 ropes

but the vasa has her lids secured with just one

can someone help me understand why? May its just obvious like the time period or just different country's.

Hallo @DusFirmin
we wish you all the BEST and a HAPPY BIRTHDAY

 

[Uwek]

Hi, this is my fist post here so I hope I placed it in the right category. I am working on the Heller le Soleil Royal and I am working on the gun ports. I want to make it a somewhat accurate model and I was going to put 2 holes in the lids for 2 ropes. But with every little thing I want to do I first want to do some research. and I came across several ships that had 1 rope for the lids but also some that were secured with 2 ropes. For example:

the Victory has her lids secured with 2 ropes

but the vasa has her lids secured with just one

can someone help me understand why? May its just obvious like the time period or just different country's.

Hallo @DusFirmin
we wish you all the BEST and a HAPPY BIRTHDAY