Help with rigging sails and oars for men-of-war ships boats

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RickNoyes

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Hello members and guests. This is the 1st time I've posted and have a few questions to ask of all of you knowledgeable people.

I have built a number of ships boats based on the plans from Harold and Underhill, for Man-of-war boats. Circa 1800s. I have attached a picture of a dinghy and a pinnace I recently competed.

I have two questions for all of the experts out there.

On the plans they show that the various boats can be either sailed or rowed. The plans do not show any details on how or where you would fasten the running lines and fixed stays for the rigging. I.e. no cleats or other fixed fastening devices apart from the mast steps. I purchased the book the “Boats of Men-of-War” by W. E. May and there doesn’t seem to be any mention of the method attaching fixed or running rigging of sails in any form.

Question 1; Would they have just attached ropes to the thwarts or other convenient openings on the structure of the boats? Or would cleats have been added based on the preferred sails used? Not having done any sailing whatsoever I’m stumped.

Question 2: Oars. Again the plans are silent on oars that would have been used. I have based the dimensions of oars on the “The art of making masts, yards gaffs etc. and oars”, 1797, by David Steel. Based on the dimensions from this book the oars tend (to my untrained eye) to be extraordinarily long compared to the boat they are used on.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated

Regards
Rick

IMG_20220611_094752.jpg

IMG_20220611_094917_HDR.jpg
 
I can’t offer any answers but am also curious as to where the oars, mast, sail and rudder would have been stowed, especially on lifeboats. I’m remaking the boats for a 1:100 Cutty Sark and while the revell kit comes with some oars, none of the other parts. Lovely boats, by the way, Rick. The top pic is exactly what I’m making, using CAD, at the moment.
 
The research I've done can't help you either regarding stowage of accessories.

The oars for the dinghy I made based on the dimensions from the above mentioned book by David Steel would have been 2ft(+) longer than the 16ft dinghy so if the dimensions are correct they wouldn’t come close to fitting in the dinghy. From the Underhill plans it shows a dinghy stored/mounted atop a longboat. So the dinghy oars may have been stored inside the longboat, however the longboat oars are again longer then the boat using Steels oar dimensions. Again the book by May doesn’t go into any detail regarding accessories and where/how they would be stowed.

Thanks for the complements regarding the boats. Hopefully some of the experts out there will pick up on the thread and help us both out.

Cheers Rick
 
RickNoyes said:
The research I've done can't help you either regarding stowage of accessories.

The oars for the dinghy I made based on the dimensions from the above mentioned book by David Steel would have been 2ft(+) longer than the 16ft dinghy so if the dimensions are correct they wouldn’t come close to fitting in the dinghy. From the Underhill plans it shows a dinghy stored/mounted atop a longboat. So the dinghy oars may have been stored inside the longboat, however the longboat oars are again longer then the boat using Steels oar dimensions. Again the book by May doesn’t go into any detail regarding accessories and where/how they would be stowed.

Thanks for the complements regarding the boats. Hopefully some of the experts out there will pick up on the thread and help us both out.

Cheers Rick
Click to expand...
1. All the running rigging lines would more than likely be attached to cleats. Cleats would have allowed for quicker release in an emergency. Cleats can also be located "as necessary" whereas thwarts can't. Unwrapping a sheet from a thwart would take too much time possibly creating a capsize event; not a good thing. Regardless of what you read in the books practicality/safety was (and still is) the most important factor in sailing; drowning was almost universally frowned upon. Having actual boating experience is a plus factor in modeling ships/boats.
2. Practicality is again the keyword in determining the length of a boat's oars. As a general statement, oars fit inside a boat on top of the thwarts. Thus their length is about 2/3 the length of the boat. Oars could vary in length depending upon where they were used. Oars used in a whaleboat in the open Pacific would probably be proportionately longer than oars used in a crowded harbor environment. In an emergency, an oar might consist of a stick; there is no absolute rule here determining design. A good way to "calculate' the dimensions of oars is to measure their proportions relative to the boat they are in using a picture. Another factor taken into consideration would be they type of wood used in their construction. Pine oars would be thicker and shorter than oars made from ash. Again, designing oars is a matter of taking into consideration all of the variables of the situation at hand. Their was an article in the NRJ about 6 or 7 years back that discussed this matter in detail; the title was 'Making Oars', or something like that.
3. Another matter. The yards on your boats are too thick. Again, this is a matter of judgement. A small boat yard would have been about 2 to 3 inches in diameter (give or take). The masts would have been about 3 to 4 inches in diameter (give or take). The mast in your first picture would probably have capsized the boat. Tables in books were guides. They could not cover all possible boat/ship configurations. Use them as guides and research backup info to verify. Again, measuring proportional dimensions from photos is a good place to start. The Kriegstein collection, the Rogers collection at Annapolis, the Mariner's Museum collection in Newport, VA, and all the collections at the English and French national museums are valuable resources; their are more 'picture books' showing these models than you can count and all available on Amazon.
4. Another fact - in the last analysis, the ship's captain could pretty much do whatever he wanted with respect to ship's boats (and also in respect to just about everything else concerning the ship). If he wanted the sailors to row with their little fingers, so be it! So, nothing was cut in stone other than the rule, 'it had better work if you wanted to live a long life".
 
Wow…thanks for the detailed reply Bill. Looks like I have some rework to do. Great advice, fully taken on-board. Also thanks for the info regarding collections/museums. I'll get stuck in shortly.

I think that as a non-sailing person with limited knowledge of ship/boat building I tended to agonised over the details. Your advice suggests there was considerable flexibility which is liberating in many ways.

Unfortunately my only boating experience, which did little to further my model making knowledge was as transportation to the outer Great Barrier reef on a large(ish) diesel catamaran. The sole purpose of these trips was to get into the water with a tank strapped to my back, as quickly and frequently as possible to spend quality time with very colourful fish and corals.

Thanks again, greatly appreciated.
Rick
 
Rick
When you mention Steels book as a reference you must keep in mind that Steeel was writing about ships. The oars you mention are called sweeps and the ship was swept through sweep ports just above the water line, hence the length.
All masts were tapers largest at base. Yards are also tapers from the center out. As to the size of mast and yards you’ll have to research the boat size, location built/used, and rig of sail.
I know this is all vague but reading rigging books will add more definitive information
 
Hi Will and thanks for taking the time to assist me.

Further to our above post. I agree with what you’re saying regarding sweeps however in Steel's book there are 2 further tables which refer to ships boats which I have attached pics of part of them. For example it says that if the breadth of the boat is say 5ft 0in, the length of the oar would be 18ft long. This is the length I used for my dingy which is 16Ft long and has a 5ft. breadth.

Based on what Bill mentioned above about variable lengths I'm assuming these tables by Steel are for ocean going ships boats and therefore the overall length is longer than you would intuitively expect.

To my eye they look comically long in proportion to the assorted ships boats I have built.

IMG_20220614_144515.jpg

IMG_20220614_144540.jpg
 
Here is a chart that may be easier to use in modeling oar lengths. Usually the length of an oar is 2 to 3 feet longer than the boat’s span. The Span is the measurement of distance between the port & starboard rowlock plates. You, of course, need to convert to the scale you are using.

Span Measurement*Heyland Marine’s Recommended Oar Length
3.4′ Span5.6′ Oars
3.8′ Span6′ Oars
4′ Span6.6’Oars
4.4′ Span7′ Oars
4.8′ Span7.6′ Oars
5′ Span8′ Oars
6′ Span9′ Oars
6.6′ Span10′ Oars
 
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RickNoyes said:
Wow…thanks for the detailed reply Bill. Looks like I have some rework to do. Great advice, fully taken on-board. Also thanks for the info regarding collections/museums. I'll get stuck in shortly.

I think that as a non-sailing person with limited knowledge of ship/boat building I tended to agonised over the details. Your advice suggests there was considerable flexibility which is liberating in many ways.

Unfortunately my only boating experience, which did little to further my model making knowledge was as transportation to the outer Great Barrier reef on a large(ish) diesel catamaran. The sole purpose of these trips was to get into the water with a tank strapped to my back, as quickly and frequently as possible to spend quality time with very colourful fish and corals.

Thanks again, greatly appreciated.
Rick
Click to expand...
1. You are welcome.
2. the key is books and lot's of reading/study. I have all the mentioned references in my library. Go to the museums and shows with a camera.
3. When I am faced with a problem/situation for which I cannot find an answer my procedure is to ask myself the question, "I am a 20 year old illiterate malnourished five foot five 120 pound young sailor at the bottom of the 'pecking order' with scurvy syphylis gohnorrea (spelling?) who hasn't slept in two days who will be flogged or get myself killed if I do not do the correct thing in the next 30 seconds. What do I do?" The answer to this question will probably be the right one for 200 years ago.
 
danielsje said:
Here is a chart that may be easier to use in modeling oar lengths. Usually the length of an oar is 2 to 3 feet longer than the boat’s span. The Span is the measurement of distance between the port & starboard rowlock plates. You, of course, need to convert to the scale you are using.

Span Measurement*Heyland Marine’s Recommended Oar Length
3.4′ Span5.6′ Oars
3.8′ Span6′ Oars
4′ Span6.6’Oars
4.4′ Span7′ Oars
4.8′ Span7.6′ Oars
5′ Span8′ Oars
6′ Span9′ Oars
6.6′ Span10′ Oars
Click to expand...

Thanks Daniel every bit helps
 
So many '18th century' ships boat kits rely on the use of dead-eyes when rigging shrouds.
Based on what I've found, this method seems highly improbable or at least exceptionally rare, so I'm glad this discussion avoids that rabbit hole.
 
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