HMS Implacable / Duguay-Trouin 1800

Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
62
Points
173

Many many moons ago I dreamed of building a large scale model of the old Implacable, formerly the Duguay-Trouin which was captured from the French two weeks after Trafalagar. Renamed Implacable she taken over by the Royal Navy and soldiered on for a century and a half until she was eventually scuttled in 1949!
I got the plans from the NMM and started studying the ship. I then started to draw my own plans which included the hull frames. To figure out the width and the location of the frames I used the timberheads alongside the forecastle deck as guides, taking it for granted that they were actually (as the name says) the top pieces of timbers i.e. frames. At that time I shared my work on the other forum where someone pointed out that I was probably on the right track as all the frames lined up neatly between the gunports. I never realised this myself before it was pointed out to me and indeed, all frames fitted perfectly between the gunports. There was no need to notch any frame pieces to make the gunports fit. I was quite thrilled. I then also joined up in a French forum and everyone there told me I got it all wrong! The frames were erected completely disregarding the position of the gunports as these were to be chiseled out later. Quite disillusioned my Implable project slowly but surely died a natural death. This is what she looks like today:



First Thing I do when I come home from work nowadays is to check out @Uwek fantastic "Today in Naval History" thread. And there today was a frame plan of a Temeraire-class 74 gun ship from 1798, two years senior to the Duguay-Trouin.



And what does this plan tell us? The frames all line up neatly between the gunports. No need to notch the frames to make the gunports fit later. I probably got it right after all. The plans I drew back then were drawn by hand, I tried to find them this evening but to no avail, I might have disposed of them at a thoughtless moment in the past. However, today in CAD-programme-age it be might be fairly easy to redraw the plans and re-animate my Implacable. But until then I have a Dutch-Twodecker to complete.

And here we have a splendid picture of the Implacable taken in the late 1930s.



Many thanks Uwe for showing us the plan!

Peter
 

Uwek

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Dec 25, 2017
Messages
14,363
Points
938

Location
Vienna, Austria
I just checked once more the drawing(s) of the Pompee, the Temeraire-class which was also captured by the british and surveyed during refitting.....

j2666.jpg
Scale: 1:48. Plan showing the body plan, stern board outline with decoration detail and the name in a cartouche on the stern counter, sheer lines with inboard detail and figurehead, and longitudinal half-breadth for Pompee (1794), a captured French Third Rate, as taken off at Portsmouth Dockyard prior to fitting as a 74-gun third Rate, two-decker. Signed by Edward Tippet [Master Shipwright, Portsmouth Dockyard, 1793-1799]


The plan I showed in the History topic is this one:

j2801.jpg
"Scale: 1:48. Plan showing the framing profile (disposition) for 'Achille' (1798) and 'Superb' (1798), both 74-gun Third Rate, two-decker, based on the 'Pompee' (1793), a captured French Third Rate."

So the frame drawing is showing the framing profile of the HMS Achille and HMS Superb, both launched in 1798 as british Pompee-class 74-gunners.
This class had only two vessels, the Achille and the Superb. This class was built based on the lines of the french captured Pompee.



There is a slightly different framing profile at the NMM, which is only linked to the Achille, but not to Superb

j2792.jpg
Scale: 1:48. Plan showing the framing profile (disposition) for 'Achille' (1798), a 74-gun Third Rate, two-decker, building at Gravesend by Mr Cleverley, based on the 'Pompee' (1793), a captured French Third Rate. Signed by John Henslow [Surveyor of the Navy, 1784-1806], and William Rule [Surveyor of the Navy, 1793-1813]

j2787.jpg
scale: 1:48. Plan showing the midship section illustrating the shif of the riders for 'Achille' (1798), a 74-gun Third Rate, two-decker, based on the 'Pompee' (1793), a captured French Third Rate. Initialled by John Henslow [Surveyor of the Navy, 1784-1806], and William Rule [Surveyor of the Navy, 1793-1813]

Achille at NMM:

Superb at NMM:

Pompee at NMM:

But these are only the drawings available in the british archives. I have no direct access to the french archives, but I know from my visit in Rochefort, that a lot of contemporary documents and drawings are existing and archivated in the different french cities. Maybe @G. DELACROIX can help here.......
 

Uwek

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Dec 25, 2017
Messages
14,363
Points
938

Location
Vienna, Austria
Do you know these data given by Threedecks about the Le Duguay Trouin' (1800) ?


1.JPG
2.JPG
3.JPG


and here is the list of all vessels of the subclass Duquesne Group variant of Téméraire Class

4.JPG



All together 42 ships of this subclass were built, most of them in Rochefort and Lorient - the detailed listing of the vessels see the link
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
46
Points
118

Location
Toulouse - France
Hello

I can tell you that this structural plan does not represent a French framework.
The hawse-hole massif, the hawse-pieces, the knighthead and the beakhead, the cant frame, the rear deadwood and the framing in general are absolutely not French (green arrows).
I cant read what is written on the plan but we can see an old pencil overprint (blue arrows) that make me think that this is the plan of a rebuild project or a copy of the ship in English sauce.
Sorry to break your new hopes.

Regards,
Gérard Delacroix

97837
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
62
Points
173

Thanks for that Gerard and Uwe. @G. DELACROIX Are there any French archives that have frame-plans of a Sane-designed 74 gun-ship similar to the ones above?
This is the drawing I posted to MSW back in 2012. I've highlighted the timberheads in yellow, as you can see, probaly by pure co-incidence the frames fit perfectly between the gunports. In the Boudriot-design of the Duc-de-Duras you can see the same, but the Duc-de-Duras wasn't a ship of war, it was an East Indiaman probably built by a private Yard.



Peter
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
46
Points
118

Location
Toulouse - France
Hello,

The French eighteenth century plans are very succinct and I dont remember having observed a plan showing all the frame of a ship. At that time, they was no concern to armonise the ports with the frame. The best source is Jean Boudriot's "74' gunship".
It was only in the 1820s and 30s that were found plans that indicate the respective positions of frame and ports, and only, on two or three ports. It was at this time and perhaps a little before the Royal Navy began to align the ports with the frames.
Its possible but unlikely that Implacable has its ports aligned but personally I doubt because, at that time, the cycle of frame is incompatible with of the port's one. Both were later modified to make them compatible.
For the timbers heads, the plan prove nothing, we can easily place them where we want by installing independent extensions. This is often the case when the extension is not in phase with the framing.

GD
 

Uwek

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Dec 25, 2017
Messages
14,363
Points
938

Location
Vienna, Austria
I need to know more about this detail. The joints betwen the parts. I know a lot of british plans with this type of frames, but i never haven´t seen
it on a rated french ship. What we know about this ? Thanks.


View attachment 112910
you mean the "chock joint" or "anchor joint", or?
I have to search in my library for a longer time, but maybe Gerard @G. DELACROIX can help here once more immediately .....
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2018
Messages
559
Points
403

Location
Munich
Hi Uwe,

sorry i don´t underständ what you mean. You know, the straight parting between the frame timbers. We know this form JB, the 74-Gun, and various differnent monographies. But all are french ships. What we see on the pictures i know from the british shipbuilding. I think that maybe the english draftsman draw his own knowledge on the paper. With the dimension from the Achille. But this is only my speculation. I hope Gerard read this question.
 

Uwek

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Dec 25, 2017
Messages
14,363
Points
938

Location
Vienna, Austria
Hi Uwe,

sorry i don´t underständ what you mean. You know, the straight parting between the frame timbers. We know this form JB, the 74-Gun, and various differnent monographies. But all are french ships. What we see on the pictures i know from the british shipbuilding. I think that maybe the english draftsman draw his own knowledge on the paper. With the dimension from the Achille. But this is only my speculation. I hope Gerard read this question.
Yes - this type of joint is named chock joint
oxfordhb-9780199336005-graphic214-full.gif

the sketch was taken from the Illustrated Glossary of Ship and Boat Terms


we have the butt joint, which is usually shown and used
sometimes there are flat scarf joints, like at the kit of the Bonhomme Richard (not in the drawings from Boudriot)
and the chock or anchor joint, shown in your example
 
Top