HMS Investigator 1798-1812 on

Hi Allan, is this your next project ?
Maybe Bryian. It started as a fill in while I was recovering from health issues. The health issues kept happening so the computer work was about all I could do. It developed into this. Not a waste of time at least. I hope to get back to the Danmark soon. I have 1 last medical thing (hernia surgery as a result of previous stuff) next week and then I think I will be good.
 
Maybe Bryian. It started as a fill in while I was recovering from health issues. The health issues kept happening so the computer work was about all I could do. It developed into this. Not a waste of time at least. I hope to get back to the Danmark soon. I have 1 last medical thing (hernia surgery as a result of previous stuff) next week and then I think I will be good.
Get well soon, Allan.
 
Maybe Bryian. It started as a fill in while I was recovering from health issues. The health issues kept happening so the computer work was about all I could do. It developed into this. Not a waste of time at least. I hope to get back to the Danmark soon. I have 1 last medical thing (hernia surgery as a result of previous stuff) next week and then I think I will be good.
Wishing you well and a speedy recovery. Investigator project looks fantastic.
 
Looking very good - a realy interesting colouring of the stern, which produces some appetite to see much more of this design work.

If you agree I have some smaller comments and hints which could be checked from your side:
investigator1aa.jpg.png

1) Usually the coppering was not covering parts of the wales - this would be technically very complicated to get closed against water, so Think, that the top line of the coppering is too high (red arrows)
2) I have the feeling, that the lower edge of the two gunports are appr. on the same level like the deck - I guess they would be higher located (blue arrow)

and one question:
at the green arrow we can see some tectile hosepipe. For what was it? - toilet? If yes, maybe you should shift the location more to the left, closer to the quarter gallery
 
Hi Uwek

Thanks for your comments.
You raise valid points and I have considered these items during the reconstruction.
Here are my reasons for doing so.
The vessel is basically a collier and I have used the dimensions as recorded. As the original ship "Fram" she would have a draught of about 12'4" This would have put the water level about 15" below the wale when fully loaded.
From Flinders journal: Mar. 1801 Thurs.12 Shipwrights coppering the ship a streak higher up.
and [Page 175] [Saturday] - 17th. ship to her anchorage, Ships draught of water Forwd. 13:6 Aft 13:10
This puts the waterline half way up the second streak of copper that Flinders had installed. I have shown the extra streak of copper sheathing on my plans. Hence the 2 horizontal layers. She was heavily laden for the voyage to Australia.
She was originally equipped with 2 x 18lb carronade stern chasers.
As you can see the gunports are positioned to accommodate these.
There are plenty of examples of the stern decoration being pierced to allow this.
See the drawings below.
The latrine could be moved a little but not too much as your head would be hitting the internal timbers.
I also changed the colour of the copper a bit.
Regards Allan


Stern details.jpg
STERN CHASER.png

investigator1aa.jpg.png
 
Many Thanks for the clarifications and good argumentation,
Very good research and design work my friend -> Thumbsup
 
Hi Uwek

Thanks for your comments.
You raise valid points and I have considered these items during the reconstruction.
Here are my reasons for doing so.
The vessel is basically a collier and I have used the dimensions as recorded. As the original ship "Fram" she would have a draught of about 12'4" This would have put the water level about 15" below the wale when fully loaded.
From Flinders journal: Mar. 1801 Thurs.12 Shipwrights coppering the ship a streak higher up.
and [Page 175] [Saturday] - 17th. ship to her anchorage, Ships draught of water Forwd. 13:6 Aft 13:10
This puts the waterline half way up the second streak of copper that Flinders had installed. I have shown the extra streak of copper sheathing on my plans. Hence the 2 horizontal layers. She was heavily laden for the voyage to Australia.
She was originally equipped with 2 x 18lb carronade stern chasers.
As you can see the gunports are positioned to accommodate these.
There are plenty of examples of the stern decoration being pierced to allow this.
See the drawings below.
The latrine could be moved a little but not too much as your head would be hitting the internal timbers.
I also changed the colour of the copper a bit.
Regards Allan


View attachment 262994
View attachment 262996

View attachment 262997
Marvelous work, excellently researched and draughted!
I might agree with Uwek's original point about the copper. I can't be sure, since I'm not sure what sources to turn to in this regard, but I have always understood copper sheathing to reach the design waterline of a vessel, not the waterline when stored for a voyage. It doesn't seem to me that copper sheathing done the naval way would have been visible above that actual waterline, but I could be wrong. The find detailing the raising of her copper is excellent (as is, on an unrelated note, Baugean's drawing!), but I would suggest the alternative interpretation that they meant one strake higher, i.e. a plank's-width higher. I'm fairly certain "streak" is a usual spelling of "strake" from that period, but as I can't verify my thoughts I leave them only as alternative viewpoints for you to consider in your build, and you may know more that I don't (in which case, I would love to hear!). I would be very surprised to see the wales being coppered, but I look eagerly forward to hearing your thoughts.
Another thing which you might want to search for are the sort of capping ribbands seen on Trincomalee and in Boudriot's books along the upper edge of the copper, though I am ignorant of any regulations or establishments regarding their use and unsure whether they would end up being appropriate. They are something I have on my list to research for my own build, when the time comes.
 
Marvelous work, excellently researched and draughted!
I might agree with Uwek's original point about the copper. I can't be sure, since I'm not sure what sources to turn to in this regard, but I have always understood copper sheathing to reach the design waterline of a vessel, not the waterline when stored for a voyage. It doesn't seem to me that copper sheathing done the naval way would have been visible above that actual waterline, but I could be wrong. The find detailing the raising of her copper is excellent (as is, on an unrelated note, Baugean's drawing!), but I would suggest the alternative interpretation that they meant one strake higher, i.e. a plank's-width higher. I'm fairly certain "streak" is a usual spelling of "strake" from that period, but as I can't verify my thoughts I leave them only as alternative viewpoints for you to consider in your build, and you may know more that I don't (in which case, I would love to hear!). I would be very surprised to see the wales being coppered, but I look eagerly forward to hearing your thoughts.
Another thing which you might want to search for are the sort of capping ribbands seen on Trincomalee and in Boudriot's books along the upper edge of the copper, though I am ignorant of any regulations or establishments regarding their use and unsure whether they would end up being appropriate. They are something I have on my list to research for my own build, when the time comes.
Hi JBeiner.
Thanks for your comments.

This puzzled me too. Falconer states that the ships of all classes be coppered under the load draught of water.
Some vessels have the design water level above the lower edge of the wale. So the coppering must have continued up to that point.
See the attached pic of Porpoise. Clearly the lower edge of the wale is below the water level.
I think the design water level of Fram would have been below the wale. As Investigator just above.
Fram was never coppered, she was coppered when purchased by the navy. When the extra row of copper was added for her voyage as Investigator maybe they used narrower sheets and literally added 1 Planking streak of copper.
The 1 strake more (of planking) would have been to the bottom of the wale. This would have been about 2.5" below the waterline as measured by Flinders.
Perhaps that was acceptable. I am still contemplating this one. I may shift the 2 rows of copper down to just below the wale or narrow the second row somewhat.


porpoise (2).jpg
 

Attachments

  • Invertigator timeline_Rev A.pdf
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Hi Frank.
Thanks for that.
Yes there is documents showing latrines.
Here is another of enterprise.
It shows them enclosed as well.

Regards
AllanView attachment 288154
Interesting find.
I was wondering, why they had midship some toilets, sometimes they had pisoires there but no seat of ease and checked the drawing

This is the text of the museum:
Scale 1:48. Plan showing the midship section for Enterprize (1774), a 28-gun, Sixth Rate Frigate, as converted to a Receiving ship to be moored by the Tower of London. Bilge keels heave been added on the plan.


So such toilets were not usual in ships in normal service

all together the receiving ship had 4 of such toilets

j6324.jpg
Scale 1:48. Plan showing the upper deck and lower deck plan for Enterprize (1774), a 28-gun, Sixth Rate Frigate, as converted and fitted to a Receiving Ship, to be moored by the Tower of London.

 
I have had similar discussions about that flag locker on Bounty. In my humble opinion it’s a head or latrine. Bligh had his seat of ease put over the rudder trunk because of the great cabin being used for breadfruit. It is even possible that the one on Bounty had a chute down through the rudder trunk and emptied through the lower counter. There was no center window on Bounty. Bligh in his journal states that the area in the stern where the sham window is was all broken by a following sea.
The second breadfruit ship Providence had them clearly marked on the draught.
These were probably equipped with pots which would be emptied overboard as there was no rudder trunk.

Regards
Allan

latrines.jpg

heads.jpg

provedance1aa.jpg
 
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