ironclad gunboat CAIRO

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

I have notice models of cross sections of wooden sailing ship are basically all the same. you seen one you seen them all. With this in mind I though what if I could come up with something really different something that has not been done and would be challenging in design, in fabrication and in details never before tried. A project that starts with research of a historic structure then converting the drawings into a cad file, next taking that file and creating a 3D printing file, from here sourcing materials such as milled wood because it is a wooden structure but an added the element of iron plating, nuts and bolts, machinery.

Here is the perfect structure an iron clad gunboat cross section in 3/8 = 1 foot scale so you can add civil war figures. The iron clads were nothing pretty to look at from the outside could even call them ugly ducklings. BUT the inner workings are an engineering marvel and a challenge for the model fabricator.
So lets take a look at the structure from the inside out, imagine a cross section showing the boilers, engine, structure and cannons, capstan, wheel house

first google Vicksburg national park and tour the real gunboat Cairo and let your creative imagination go. There are You Tube videos touring the Cairo so there is no lack of detailed information. What cross section would you do?

https://www.nps.gov/vick/u-s-s-cairo-gunboat.htm

then go here and view a build log on the complete vessel

http://modelshipbuilder.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?5406.0

here are the plans enjoy
don't get into a tizzy over copyrights these plans come from the US government National Parks Service and are public domain

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

shall we continue and take a look inside?

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

now for fans of 3D drawing and printing how about a scale model of the guns and steam engine details.

 

[donfarr]

SHE IS A GOOD ONE DAVE, is this something an intermediate modeler can build, PLEASE LET ME HERE as always looking forward to this as all your projects, please let me know. Don

 

[Uwek]

Many thanks for sharing this.....interesting construction of this ironclad

 

[Uwek]

What I forgot......as i know there are several cardboard models available of these kind of ships. Relatively easy builds.....i will try to find the links for free downloads

 

[donfarr]

IS there not anyone on this FORUM ABLE TO HELP Dave Stevens In his eddever to advance THIS HOBBY TO THE NEXT PHASE THE USE OF 3-D INSTRUCTIONS AND MODELING TO DEVELOPE THIS CONCEPT QUICKLY AND NOT GO OFF ON TANGANTS THE MAN NEEDS HELP FROM SOMEONE CAN NOT DO IT ALONE, any members interested in advancing the hobby into a new phase, looking for someone who will follow through on PROMISES AND NOT THROW MOKEY WRENCHES INTO THIS DEVELOPMENT, as the MAJORITY OF MOIDELKERS ARE NOT ON FORUMS, does not anyone know of someone off the forum right now FOREIGN OR DOMESTIC PLEASE CONTACT DAVE STEVENS or the concepy is DEAD and left for others that i Will not mention to advance this processes, PLEASE NO LIP SERVICE BUT NEED REAL COMENTS AND HELP. Don

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

when taken out of context you wonder what exactly is Don going on about?

so here is the back story

a group was formed to look into ideas to create forum projects any profits from these projects would go back into the creation of new projects and help support forums like this one.
When we looked into the creation of projects we soon realized the high cost of production. These cost were paying people to create 3D printing files, high quality 3D printing is very expensive, cutting files for laser cutting, production molds for cannons and fittings, mill work and the creation of 3D models as an instruction guide. We realized the low interest and maybe 5 people interested, it turns into a money pit and to recoup investments wont happen let along support future projects. Another issue was people were not willing to spend the time it would take to create a project self interest and profit was the number 1 concern and not the advancement of the hobby in general, which I can understand nobody works for free.
Because of little to no interest the idea came up to expand into other areas like forums of civil war enthusiasts, steam engine , other ships besides wooden sailing ships, model engineers, 3D modeling.

the Cairo was a project started years ago by a group of model builders. Members of this group went to Vicksburg and took a couple 100 photos of the Cairo, research was done, piles of information was collected, CAD drawings done and like now it all just fizzled out and faded away. The thought maybe resurrect the project as a cross section model project. People were contacted and the reply was less than enthusiastic not interested, don't have the time, don't know how, don't bother me, how much money will I get from it.

What I did was just post the drawings for general interest to see what might come of it

I am not developing a project, I am not knocking myself out trying to find anyone interested in such a project nor am I thinking of a kit

 

[lauckstreet]

Dave, Don and the rest of the group,

At first glance I was definitely interested in adding my help to development by creating the 3D drawings of the boiler system and engine so that 3D printed parts could be created. I began work on the boilers which are the simpler of the two main structures and found that even creating those parts for 3D printing was going to take some time.

The problem for me is that model shipbuilding, which was a hobby for me for over 15 years, suddenly turned into a business back in 2003. Since then my wife has retired, I lost my actual paying job in 2002, and we've suffered through a very devastating fall in the US economy causing us to lose all of our retirement funds as well as our house and most of our furniture. We depend on the income from our business. We can't live without it, can't make ends meet.

So I spend most of my time each day working on products for our business that will make money to help support us. With the constant fear that Model Expo will close its doors some day, I have to keep developing new products because half of the practicums I developed in the early days of our business are based on Model Expo kits. When they close, the kits go away and our best selling products die with that loss.

I wish I had the time to spend for Dave's very interesting project, but unless there's a paycheck at the end of what would amount to hundreds of hours of development time, I just can't do it. If I could sell the 3D printed parts on my website rather than have them used to create molds for resin casting, then it might be worth my time. But even still, as Dave mentioned in his first posting, it's a small market, not many will buy the parts in the first place, so the question and problem remains, how does one recoup the time spent in development, especially when one relies on their time spent on such projects to earn a living.

For me, the only way I could do the development work on this project would be if there was going to be a financial return at the end, one that is steady, one that is profitable. 3D printed parts are not cheap. To get good quality parts at a reasonable price, one would have to purchase a 3D printer that uses resin and light technology such as the one sold by Formlabs. That's a $5,000 investment up front, but the average cost of a high resolution 3D print using that kind of printer is pennies compared to commercial services available. Believe me, I've been following this technology for years and have often tried to scrape up the money to buy one of those machines but the price keeps climbing and it comes down to what it would take to recoup the investment. I strongly believe that it can't be done in this particular hobby. Supply and demand is just too low these days.

Sorry I can't help out, I wish I could, but believe me. With my experience in creating 3D parts and having them printed, the boilers alone would probably cost $20.00 or more depending on the scale. The engine would probably cost $50.00 or more and that's just my cost alone. After markup to make a little bit of profit I'm looking at over $100.00 for the prints and probably 300 hours of work to develop the CAD files. Will anyone want to pay that kind of money in the end, just for the engine and boilers? Maybe a few die hard modelers but not enough to make it all worthwhile.

I applaud Dave and others for trying to make this project happen as a community build. It's unique, it's challenging, and historical. Perhaps some in the civil war hobby would take an interest but are they modelers? I doubt it, maybe some are. And what do I know or any of us know about that market place? Food for thought.

Thanks,

Bob

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

Bob is right on the mark and the projects group went around and around with ideas to create community projects and we found out it is not possible in such a small market.
if this were one of the big hobbies like model railroading, R/C models, plastic models where conventions, shows, contests and with a well organized national organization supporting the hobby then it is worth the risk of R&D for new products. But static model ship building does not have any of the above.

take this as an example

Like Bob pointed out there is a lot of time and money up front before the first part is mass produced so either 100s of kits have to be sold OR a limited edition kit run is done, problem with that is the limited edition has to recoup cost + profit so a buyer is spending $2,000.00 for a kit because there are not enough kits made to spread the cost.

Another consideration is the hobby itself. The Cairo is approaching model engineering and fabrication. It is a challenge the Cairo ran pipes from the steam boilers to heat the rest of the vessel turn the capstan and paddle wheel.
This is a hobby of 90% kit builders and kits from China are all the rage so any project that requires a high level of skill is down to that last 10% and out of that maybe 1% would be interest.

I have talked to Bob and others and there is the know how to create unique projects what is lacking is an interest.
yes we can create 3D models where a builder can view the model at any angle, see where all the parts fit together look down the length of the deck or go down below and look at the hull structure.
100s of hours and or 1000s of dollars for what? to sell 6 kits sorry folks I an with Bob on this one not worth the time, money and effort.

 

[Mike41]

Gene Bodnar built an outstanding model of this ship in 2012 and has a great build log on MSB.

 

[zoly99sask]

Here is the link for the build log

http://modelshipbuilder.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?5406.post

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

"better models through research"

you may have come across this statement a good idea but totally impractical, expensive and takes a lot of time.

to draw and built the steam engine used on the Cairo all there is to work with is this drawing.



the areas colored in lack all the details, looking at one of the steam engines you can see the amount of details which are missing in the drawing .



the point to start looking for information would be the Cairo museum in vicksburg. so i asked and this is the answer
"we do not have the steam engine it was lost" ok follow up questions how did it get lost? did it fall off the truck when it was being moved to Vicksburg? lost when it was sent to be restored? is it still at the bottom of the Yazoo river?
The museum was a dead end no one knows or they are not telling.

next is to find out about the salvage operation who did it when and how.

this can be found in the historic structure report by Tom McGrath and Doug Ashley US department of interior national parks service. This is where the drawing comes from. So you got to ask, if they did a drawing of the steam engine did they just make it up? did they at one time actually see the engine or perhaps this is a typical steam engine of the period.

The salvage of the Cairo was not done by a nautical archeologist it was done by the Mississippi Agricultural and Industry they did such a job on the Cairo one major castastrophe after another occured. The broken up pieces were sent to Pascagoula to be restored.

Next step is to try and locate information on the steam engine it was built by the Hartupee company in Pittsburg PA this is another dead end there is nothing on this company or any drawings of steam engines they built.

Before any drawings can be made you got to know what your drawing and that is like finding a needle in a haystack and the problem is first finding the haystack. then there might be 1,000s of haystacks to look for. such an example of a steam engine can be in any small town historical society along the entire Mississippi river.

a logical step would be to contact the Heney ford museum they have the largest collection of steam engines in the North America and the largest archive. Their answer is

Thank you for your inquiry. This is a variation on a traditional 6-column beam engine or compound beam engine. We do not have any information about the Hartupee engine company in our library and archive, nor do we have an example of an engine built by this company. The steam engine we have here in our collection that comes closest to this engine is the Dickson engine. We also have a 6 column beam engine model, as well. I have attached the catalog records for these 2 artifacts, just in case you are interested.

the sheer fustration of tracking down information can take months if not a year or more and you still might come up empty handed. It would be possible to make a trip to the Henry ford museum and photograph every steam engine they have and come up with a possible Hartupee 6 column engine based on available information. The big question is who actually did the drawing and what was it based on? if it was "lost" how would you know what it looked like?

There is something to be said about building models out of a box, it is a fun hobby enjoyable to do and don't sweat the details and historical accuracy. If you want to venture into scratch building historical models be prepared to spend a lot of research time and money. The going rate to seasrch archives is $35.00 to $50.00 an hour unless you go there yourself.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

when you look at the two 6-column steam engines in the Henry Ford Museum and compare them to the drawing you can see they are nothing alike. One major difference is the drawing shows the wheel in center of the engine and the two below show the wheel to the side.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

what baffles me is how can you find and salvage shoes from the crew but loose a 2 ton engine?

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

to gain information on the engines of the Ciaro one must back track and look into the story for clues.

The Cairo was found intact at the bottom of the Yazoo river in 1956
A local group formed Operation Cairo Inc. to salvage the vessel. Their amateur attempts resulted in extensive damage and ended as a major archaeological disaster. They literally ripped apart the vessel discarding parts looking for artifacts.
The Cairo then sat for years as funding ran out. Next it seems another group took over salvage The Steerling committee around 1960 to 1964 a grass root local group, in their attempts to raise the vessel they totally distroyed the hull. What they did was run cables under the hull thinking that would form a cradle and they could lift the vessel to the surface. They did not clear out the mud in the hull and the weight of the mud plus not having an understanding of the structure the cables cut through the hull like a wire through cheese. When lifting the sections the cradle acting like a clam shell crushing the sections. As sections were lifted out of the water parts broke apart and fell back into the river what was actually lifted out was a heap of crushed and mangled bits and pieces. To make matters worse the salvage attempts were abandoned and what was left behind were taken by local scavengers so the story goes. So what was once an intact priceless historical structure was destroyed by the local residents.

What happen next the mangled remains of the Cairo were taken to Ingalls shipyard in Pascagoula Mississippi where they sat for 12 years rotting away. Here is when the National Parks Service stepped in.

it would be difficult to track down the engine and find out exactly what happened to it.
if it could be found a 3D model of a rare example of a 6-column steam engine and the complete propulsion system of a civil war ironclad would make a huge historical impact by a group of model ship builders.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

The story of the Cairo is not the first of its kind this happened on the Great Lakes with the schooner of 1846 alvin clark. the ship was found intact and raised by local divers.



in the end it sat and rotted finally to be bulldozed over and taken to a land fill.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

the shipyard where the remains of the Cairo sat for 12 years is still there. Question is are there photographs and records at the yard?

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

continued research there are a number of photograph collections dating as far back as when the Cairo was discovered in the Yazoo river.

pin pointing exactly when the steam engine was last seen is the problem right now. Another problem is getting anyone to actually answer questions. Even the Cairo museum does not reply to questions.

All that has to be known is if the engine was actually salvaged or is it still on the bottom of the Yazoo?

 

[donfarr]

to gain information on the engines of the Ciaro one must back track and look into the story for clues.

The Cairo was found intact at the bottom of the Yazoo river in 1956
A local group formed Operation Cairo Inc. to salvage the vessel. Their amateur attempts resulted in extensive damage and ended as a major archaeological disaster. They literally ripped apart the vessel discarding parts looking for artifacts.
The Cairo then sat for years as funding ran out. Next it seems another group took over salvage The Steerling committee around 1960 to 1964 a grass root local group, in their attempts to raise the vessel they totally distroyed the hull. What they did was run cables under the hull thinking that would form a cradle and they could lift the vessel to the surface. They did not clear out the mud in the hull and the weight of the mud plus not having an understanding of the structure the cables cut through the hull like a wire through cheese. When lifting the sections the cradle acting like a clam shell crushing the sections. As sections were lifted out of the water parts broke apart and fell back into the river what was actually lifted out was a heap of crushed and mangled bits and pieces. To make matters worse the salvage attempts were abandoned and what was left behind were taken by local scavengers so the story goes. So what was once an intact priceless historical structure was destroyed by the local residents.

What happen next the mangled remains of the Cairo were taken to Ingalls shipyard in Pascagoula Mississippi where they sat for 12 years rotting away. Here is when the National Parks Service stepped in.

it would be difficult to track down the engine and find out exactly what happened to it.
if it could be found a 3D model of a rare example of a 6-column steam engine and the complete propulsion system of a civil war ironclad would make a huge historical impact by a group of model ship builders.