Kit Quality

[Aantaug]

Hi all,
I have been building ship models for forty years. Since then the quality of materials in ship kits has steadily gone downhill.
Used to be planks were cut with dull blades. They needed much work just to be used let alone finishing the final preduct.
Now manufacturers are substituting one species of wood with another of "similar" chacteristics due to availability. The kits from reputable manufacturers are now using a soft white wood that was cut with dull blades and calling it walnut. They throw in a pack of water based walnut stain.
My last kit wound up being a box of garbage wood that I replaced with wood I bought on Amazon and milled myself. Unfortunately, the best quality kit I have ever seen was the Black From ZHL from China. The material was the best I have seen and worked with. Too bad it is so difficult to buy from them.
Kit manufacturers, European and American need to wake up and stop cheaping out with their quality.
Perhaps it's time to move on to scratch building so I can source quality materials on my own.
Anyone else have any input here?

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

Kits are designed for the hobby/toy industry price trumps quality that's just the way it is.

Kit manufacturers, European and American need to wake up and stop cheaping out with their quality................
.................Perhaps it's time to move on to scratch building so I can source quality materials on my own.

the better quality in a kit the high the price goes so it kind of voids itself out. How many hobby guys are willing to spend big bucks on a hobby kit?

before jumping into the deep end of scratch building let it be known you have to have some back round in how ships were built there are NO instructions.

go to the school for model shipwrights and stast with page 1 of the Hawke build to get an idea of semi-scratch and scratch building

 

[Jimsky]

Hi all,
I have been building ship models for forty years. Since then the quality of materials in ship kits has steadily gone downhill.
Used to be planks were cut with dull blades. They needed much work just to be used let alone finishing the final preduct.
Now manufacturers are substituting one species of wood with another of "similar" chacteristics due to availability. The kits from reputable manufacturers are now using a soft white wood that was cut with dull blades and calling it walnut. They throw in a pack of water based walnut stain.
My last kit wound up being a box of garbage wood that I replaced with wood I bought on Amazon and milled myself. Unfortunately, the best quality kit I have ever seen was the Black From ZHL from China. The material was the best I have seen and worked with. Too bad it is so difficult to buy from them.
Kit manufacturers, European and American need to wake up and stop cheaping out with their quality.
Perhaps it's time to move on to scratch building so I can source quality materials on my own.
Anyone else have any input here?

You make an excellent point. I think part of the issue is that many builders tend to stay loyal to just a few familiar manufacturers, so they may not be aware of what’s available from other makers in Europe, Asia, Ukraine, and Russia, where the quality can be surprisingly high. Of course, there is no single manufacturer that makes the kit 100% satisfactory. There will always be cons and pros for the buyers on an individual kit.

I also agree that kit manufacturers need to wake up and modernize their production methods and materials, embracing CNC machining, laser precision, 3D printing, and updated tooling, to keep pace with today’s expectations. The technology is readily available; it’s just not being applied consistently. On the other hand, I understand that doing so would require additional investment, which would likely lead to higher prices. The question is, would we, as builders, be willing to pay much more?

While scratch building is certainly an option, it’s not realistic for everyone; it demands skill and experience, specialized tools, and more time. There should be room in this hobby for both paths, but the kit producers definitely need to raise their standards if they want to keep builders interested and inspired.

 

[Jack Sparrow]

Another thing. They need to make sure there is enough wood, fittings, etc to finish the project. I am always having to contact manufacturers about this piece or that piece is missing. I would say this probably falls under the category of customer service ,which is also quite important.

And finally to complete my rant, let me say that britannia metal fittings need to be replaced with something much lighter and better defined shapes.

 

[fourseas]

I still believe that anyone who has built two or more wooden ship kits has the ability to move into the area of scratch building. You already have the knowledge of building techniques which you taught yourself from your previous builds. Sure, you may have to purchase a few extra tools to make your own parts instead of assembling a box of prefab pieces which will take more time, but not impossible with your knowledge. Your scratch build project allows you to select and purchase your own wood and not be at the mercy of kit manufactures whom are always looking to cut cost. Your fittings which usually come as part of the kit can always be purchased at the exact scale you require. So often I see members on this site are looking to replace fittings from a kit because of the lack of quality or inappropriate scale. One last thing I would suggest to scratch builders to get away from kit building is to spend some time looking at the listings of good quality model ship plans. Look closely at the details provided on them and determine whether you could make the pieces yourself. Do not choose a set of drawings just because it is the name of the ship you happened to be interested in building. A lot of plans already have the frames or bulkhead drawings on them which saves a huge amount of time in preparation for your build. And finally you can always have your local print shop reproduce your drawings in whatever scale you choose.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

allows you to select and purchase your own wood

In which situation the Wood-Database is your dearest of friends.
https://www.wood-database.com/wood-filter/
The economical course is to check with your local hardwood lumber yards.
Using domestic species that have the scale appropriate grain, texture, pore size helps with cost. (hardness has more of a personal preference option) Especially with POF - where the volume of lumber needed can be impressive. The volume that goes to sawdust and scrap starts at 50% and is probably closer to 90% for some components.
If you get ahold of a chainsaw and become a wood ghoul, the number of possible species goes way up and the price comes way down.

 

[fourseas]

In which situation the Wood-Database is your dearest of friends.

Quick example of the wood that I use for my builds;

Frames - Baltic Birch, 1/4 inch thickness, plywood.
Bow and Stern shape- Balsa blocks carved to shape
Initial Planking- Clear, dry, pine or (depending on type of vessel) 1/32 bass plywood.
Final Planking- (again depending on the vessel) mahogany, cherry, walnut, or modern day ships fibreglass.

Jim

 

[Short John Bronze]

Scratch building
With my small Proxxon scroll saw I could cut a keel, decks and bulkheads (or frames) - all of which would ultimately be hidden by planking. I could procure blocks of sapele, lime wood, cherry, walnut and more exotic woods and cut them into strips with my Proxxon FET. Lacking a forge I would need to select from the 22+ cannon offered by Cornwall Model Boats. I could select cordage from the wide variety offered by Corel, Occre, Amati, AL etc. (Surely some can be found with acceptable thicknesses.) I balk at making several hundred deadeyes and blocks by hand and I think ready made dowel is preferred to turning square billets into cylinders.
When I have stuck all these bits together could I claim it as a scratch build? But how would it differ from assembling (and tweaking) a kit? Or, as one member put it "assembling a box of prefab pieces" Ah! No Box! But a lot of sawdust, blunted saw blades and hours of tedious low skill sawing.
No thanks.

 

[AllanKP69]

it’s not realistic for everyone; it demands skill and experience, specialized tools,

I totally get your point Jim but scratch builders do not start out with any more experience than kit builders or anyone else. Skill comes with practice/experience. I look at my models from 45 years ago, 20 years ago and 10 years ago. There is obvious improvement that came with more practice. Will I ever real the top 10 or 50 model builders in the world, Not going to happen, but the quality improves along the way. Tools? I did a boat model and build log here that is scratch and used only hand tools, both manual and electric. It was only to make a point. I love my "specialized" tools, but they came one at a time as I could afford them over many years. I do not want to cut floors and futtocks with a hand coping saw, but I can and I have and so can anyone else if they have the desire to do so.

Allan

 

[Roger Pellett]

I have only built one model kit; a Model Shipways Harriett Lane kit completed in the late 1960’s. Since then All of my models have been scratch built. I also don’t purchase fittings. I make them myself. I, therefore, have no “skin” or financial interest in any company producing or selling ship model kits.

Having posted my disclaimer, a Question? How many forum members have followed Al Ross’s posts about developing Bluejacket’s latest kit; a West Coast Lumber Schooner? I suspect compared to the hype surrounding launch of the new Solient Royle kit, almost none. Al has recently purchased Bluejacket from its previous owner and instead of spending $$$ promoting their old standards is taking the risk to offer well thought out new subjects. Sorry they don’t have rows of cannons!

So if kits bought from the usual suspects don’t meet quality expectations why keep rewarding them? Look into new sources. That’s how the market is supposed to work.

Roger

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

I also agree that kit manufacturers need to wake up and modernize their production methods and materials, embracing CNC machining, laser precision, 3D printing, and updated tooling, to keep pace with today’s expectations
Jim

So if kits bought from the usual suspects don’t meet quality expectations why keep rewarding them? Look into new sources. That’s how the market is supposed to work.
Roge

i agree with both statements and would like to add. Yes the price keeps going up but the quality stays the same. But yet kit builders still buy the same old stuff so why should the manufactures change?

what has to change are the builders

 

[Jimsky]

I totally get your point Jim but scratch builders do not start out with any more experience than kit builders or anyone else. Skill comes with practice/experience. I look at my models from 45 years ago, 20 years ago and 10 years ago. There is obvious improvement that came with more practice. Will I ever real the top 10 or 50 model builders in the world, Not going to happen, but the quality improves along the way. Tools? I did a boat model and build log here that is scratch and used only hand tools, both manual and electric. It was only to make a point. I love my "specialized" tools, but they came one at a time as I could afford them over many years. I do not want to cut floors and futtocks with a hand coping saw, but I can and I have and so can anyone else if they have the desire to do so.

You’re absolutely right, Alan, skill definitely comes with practice and experience, and every build teaches us something new. We’ve discussed this dilemma many times before, in many different threads on SoS, so I won’t repeat the same arguments here.
What I was getting at is that while anyone can scratch-build with enough patience and desire, not everyone wants to or has the time and tooling to take that path. Experience helps, but there’s still a threshold of skill and preparation that makes scratch building a different challenge altogether.

That said, I completely agree that specialized tools aren’t the key — it’s the builder’s persistence and willingness to learn that make the difference.

 

[Klompen]

Hi all,
I have been building ship models for forty years. Since then the quality of materials in ship kits has steadily gone downhill.
Used to be planks were cut with dull blades. They needed much work just to be used let alone finishing the final preduct.
Now manufacturers are substituting one species of wood with another of "similar" chacteristics due to availability. The kits from reputable manufacturers are now using a soft white wood that was cut with dull blades and calling it walnut. They throw in a pack of water based walnut stain.
My last kit wound up being a box of garbage wood that I replaced with wood I bought on Amazon and milled myself. Unfortunately, the best quality kit I have ever seen was the Black From ZHL from China. The material was the best I have seen and worked with. Too bad it is so difficult to buy from them.
Kit manufacturers, European and American need to wake up and stop cheaping out with their quality.
Perhaps it's time to move on to scratch building so I can source quality materials on my own.
Anyone else have any input here?

That is soo true. I am presently building a dutch fishing boat from Mantua Models (Italian company). Apart from the design not being true to the real ship, To many artistic adjustments, the laser cutting is sooo bad, that nothing fits and many parts have to be cut to fit. This is my fourth model boats, apart from building many pieces of 12th scale dolls house furniture so I am certainly not a beginner. As far as the design is concerned, they have certainly not looked at a real ship not at anyones drawings.

 

[Winova]

I just finished building Model Shipways Kit of thr Flying Fish, and what
do I think of kit building,frankly it was a waste of time and money.
I bought the Kit at a sale price but had to pay freight , duty ,exchange
charges which were half as much as the Kit.
I was disappointed with the supplied fittings, even the brass nails
I could not use.Fitting sizes were all out of whack,even the flags
were out of scale.
Basically it was just a big disappointment ,my finished Model
became a scratch finished Model in my opinion ,never again
will I buy a Kit.
Sorry I took the Kit making route as I thought it would be easier
for me at my age.
Winova

 

[MikeRags]

Hi all,
I have been building ship models for forty years. Since then the quality of materials in ship kits has steadily gone downhill.
Used to be planks were cut with dull blades. They needed much work just to be used let alone finishing the final preduct.
Now manufacturers are substituting one species of wood with another of "similar" chacteristics due to availability. The kits from reputable manufacturers are now using a soft white wood that was cut with dull blades and calling it walnut. They throw in a pack of water based walnut stain.
My last kit wound up being a box of garbage wood that I replaced with wood I bought on Amazon and milled myself. Unfortunately, the best quality kit I have ever seen was the Black From ZHL from China. The material was the best I have seen and worked with. Too bad it is so difficult to buy from them.
Kit manufacturers, European and American need to wake up and stop cheaping out with their quality.
Perhaps it's time to move on to scratch building so I can source quality materials on my own.
Anyone else have any input here?

Seems true with EVERYTHING these days. It’s sad and pathetic.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

i am finding the comments on kits and quality depends on who is making the comments. For example, i have talked to skilled, experienced woodworkers and from their point of view the quality of most kits are poor mainly because they know woodworking. People who have worked in fabrication and model building with years of experience would not bother with a kit. Anyone who knows a thing or two about maritime history have no use for kits. BUT on the flip side people looking for a hobby love kits they provide everything in the box, there are kits to challenge all levels of skills. Kits are a great past time and will produce an acceptable model for display. Those who complain about instructions usually are someone trying a complicated build for the first time and have no idea of the subject at hand. Some jump into an expensive complex kit and get frustrated when thing go wrong and they do not know how to fix it.
Kits are a big part of this hobby and provide a challenge regardless of quality or accuracy or being historical correct that just does not matter it is a fun hobby.
If you are a skilled model builder or someone concerned with accuracy, quality of materials, historical correctness or into fine scale modeling then kits are not for you.

 

[Signet]

Hi all,
I have been building ship models for forty years. Since then the quality of materials in ship kits has steadily gone downhill.

After reading this first line, I wondered if it was a typo. IMHO, the quality of ship kit materials, AND kits themselves, has gone steadily UP hill! So much so, that when deciding what to build, I look for the LATEST released kits to consider building, knowing they will be better (although not necessarily the wood materials, which to me are about as good as they could get). But then I realized my statement is only true, because I'm looking at Chinese kits! I've pretty much given up on the "big names" of traditional ship models, and am instead looking only at models from Chinese ZHL, CAF, Trident, Modelship Dockyard, etc. From what I've seen, kits from Corel, Mamoli, etc. are the same as those they made 30+ years ago, with so-so materials and standardized parts always too big or too small for their intended use. And blocks useful only for filling the trash bin. I can't say they're any worse than they were 30 years ago, but certainly very little better. Thus, the Chinese kits.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

After reading this first line, I wondered if it was a typo. IMHO, the quality of ship kit materials, AND kits themselves, has gone steadily UP hill! So much so, that when deciding what to build, I look for the LATEST released kits to consider building, knowing they will be better (although not necessarily the wood materials, which to me are about as good as they could get). But then I realized my statement is only true, because I'm looking at Chinese kits! I've pretty much given up on the "big names" of traditional ship models, and am instead looking only at models from Chinese ZHL, CAF, Trident, Modelship Dockyard, etc. From what I've seen, kits from Corel, Mamoli, etc. are the same as those they made 30+ years ago, with so-so materials and standardized parts always too big or too small for their intended use. And blocks useful only for filling the trash bin. I can't say they're any worse than they were 30 years ago, but certainly very little better. Thus, the Chinese kits.

what i think is the quality of kits did not go down what happened here is the quality and skills of the builder went up and now
Anataus has realized he grew out of the hobby kit level and is now ready to get a bit more serious

​

 

[manning16]

After reading this first line, I wondered if it was a typo. IMHO, the quality of ship kit materials, AND kits themselves, has gone steadily UP hill! So much so, that when deciding what to build, I look for the LATEST released kits to consider building, knowing they will be better (although not necessarily the wood materials, which to me are about as good as they could get). But then I realized my statement is only true, because I'm looking at Chinese kits! I've pretty much given up on the "big names" of traditional ship models, and am instead looking only at models from Chinese ZHL, CAF, Trident, Modelship Dockyard, etc. From what I've seen, kits from Corel, Mamoli, etc. are the same as those they made 30+ years ago, with so-so materials and standardized parts always too big or too small for their intended use. And blocks useful only for filling the trash bin. I can't say they're any worse than they were 30 years ago, but certainly very little better. Thus, the Chinese kits.

Signet ..well said..I have done Chuck Passaro's Confederacy and now the Winchelsea.. They are superb kits in quality and instructions... I am beyond the kit stage..having said that Eueopeans better step up..SOS for years.. The Chinese are light years ahead.. I just finished the 1/30 Royal Caroline and the materials, pearwood carvings were excellent..rigging and directions not good..throw them away and follow build logs... my next will be the new version of BR cross section soon as the tariff thing gets sorted. Still a place for kits, but the quality needs a complete overhaul.

 

[Winova]

I think Dave Steven's is right on , one s skill level will improve over time and
changes one s attitude regarding the building of kits.
Winova