One of my ancestors (Martin Tjaden) mustered on a steam ship called the Schwan out of Bremen in December 1859. I think the Schwan was built in 1863 by Johannes Wilhelm Klawitter in his shipyard in Brabank (part of Gdansk). I would like to find information about the Schwan or perhaps a photo to base a scratch-built project on. Can anyone help me???
-
LUCZORAMA SHIPWRECK SCAVENGER HUNT GIVEAWAY. 4 Weeks of Fun • 1 Legendary Prize ((OcCre’s Fram Ship)) • Global Crew Welcome!
**VIEW THREAD HERE**
Hallo,
one question for clarification
You wrote that your ancestor mustered on the Schwan at 1859, but the ship was built four years later in 1863
-> is there maybe a typewriting error in the years?
one question for clarification
You wrote that your ancestor mustered on the Schwan at 1859, but the ship was built four years later in 1863
-> is there maybe a typewriting error in the years?
I found in a listing a passenger ship named SCHWAN built in 1863 by
J.W. Klawitter, Danzig / Werftbetriebsgemeinschaft Klawitter & Co., Danzig
Owner was
Alexander Gibsone, Danzig
seems that the vessel was 32,6 meter long
#15 (1863) SCHWAN 40 NRT 32,6m po awarii w 1908r zlomowany w 1910
google translation:
SCHWAN 40 NRT 32.6m after a breakdown in 1908, scrapped in 1910
J.W. Klawitter, Danzig / Werftbetriebsgemeinschaft Klawitter & Co., Danzig
Owner was
Alexander Gibsone, Danzig
seems that the vessel was 32,6 meter long
#15 (1863) SCHWAN 40 NRT 32,6m po awarii w 1908r zlomowany w 1910
google translation:
SCHWAN 40 NRT 32.6m after a breakdown in 1908, scrapped in 1910
it seem, that this was a special type of passenger ship and all the listed vessels were similar - so it makes maybe also sense to search for the other vessels - maybe you find a photo or sketch
Falke
Schwan
Drache
Greif
Blitz
Pfeil
Falke
Schwan
Drache
Greif
Blitz
Pfeil
I found a photo of a "Schwan" in this polish forum - the right one
It is written:
As it turns out, "by the way" a lot of interesting ships got into the lens :hihi: I'll look through all my materials carefully and maybe scan something else. For now:
maybe it makes sense to register also there and try to find out more
It is written:
As it turns out, "by the way" a lot of interesting ships got into the lens :hihi: I'll look through all my materials carefully and maybe scan something else. For now:
maybe it makes sense to register also there and try to find out more
As to the dates, yes, I am confused as well and I must be mistaken.
This is the record I found on Ancestry.com:
Martin Valentine Tjaden, born in Norden (Ostfriesland) and living in Aurich (Ostfriesland)
I can't read the first word in the 2nd line, but the date looks like his birth date. Then Dec 23, 1859, (Captain) Koster, on the ship Schwann (to) England
I also found another record, but my German is almost nothing. His name appears in a directory of sailors traveling under the Bremen flag. The rest I cannot read.
His name is listed here and the ship's name is Schwan under Captain Koster:
The ship I found that had been constructed in Danzig in 1863 by Klawitter is probably the wrong Schwann. My mistake!! Sorry.
Now looking for a German ship, Schwann, built before 1859!!!
This is the record I found on Ancestry.com:
Martin Valentine Tjaden, born in Norden (Ostfriesland) and living in Aurich (Ostfriesland)
I can't read the first word in the 2nd line, but the date looks like his birth date. Then Dec 23, 1859, (Captain) Koster, on the ship Schwann (to) England
I also found another record, but my German is almost nothing. His name appears in a directory of sailors traveling under the Bremen flag. The rest I cannot read.
His name is listed here and the ship's name is Schwan under Captain Koster:
The ship I found that had been constructed in Danzig in 1863 by Klawitter is probably the wrong Schwann. My mistake!! Sorry.
Now looking for a German ship, Schwann, built before 1859!!!
it could be "Leichtmat." which means "Leichtmatrose"
Leichtmatrose war in der Handelsmarine bis 1983 ein ab dem 2. Ausbildungsjahr in Ausbildung auf einem Schiff befindlicher Seemann, sein Rang lag zwischen Schiffsjunge und Vollmatrose. Erst nach dem dritten Jahr auf See erhielt der Leichtmatrose den Rang des Vollmatrosen, weil die Ausbildung zum Seemann beendet war.
google translation:
Until 1983, an ordinary seaman was a seaman in the merchant navy who was in training on a ship from the second year of training onwards. His rank was between cabin boy and able seaman. Only after the third year at sea did the ordinary seaman receive the rank of able seaman because the training to become a seaman was completed.
Eureka!!!! Searched Lloyds under 1857 and found this:
This means the Schwan was an iron steamship driven by screw under Captain H. Koster, tonnage 521 (354 old measure), built in 1858 at Newcastle for the Norddeutscher Lloyd Company out of Bremen and its 1st destination after launch was Bremen (I don't know what "Hul" refers to). She seems to have had 5 bulkheads and was given an A-1 classification.
Then, if anyone is interested, I was able to find the first survey report that Lloyd's conducted on the Schwan--it contains a wealth of information and should provide enough initial data for a build.
This means the Schwan was an iron steamship driven by screw under Captain H. Koster, tonnage 521 (354 old measure), built in 1858 at Newcastle for the Norddeutscher Lloyd Company out of Bremen and its 1st destination after launch was Bremen (I don't know what "Hul" refers to). She seems to have had 5 bulkheads and was given an A-1 classification.
Then, if anyone is interested, I was able to find the first survey report that Lloyd's conducted on the Schwan--it contains a wealth of information and should provide enough initial data for a build.
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2024
- Messages
- 992
- Points
- 353
Of course, if it is your intent to build a model, unless it is a waterline model, you will need a lines drawing to determine the shape of the hull. Your Lloyds archive might include calculations where she was measured for Gross and Net Tonnage, but British Tonnage laws were changed in the mid 1850’s so the term “Old Measure” in the survey undoubtedly refers to the pre 1850 system not requiring these detailed measurements so probably a blind alley.
“Palmers” on the Lloyds survey report is Palmer Brothers, and Co. a famous Northeastern British shipyard. They got their start building iron hulled steam colliers for hauling coal mined in N.E. England to coal-gas plants in London. Founded in 1851, they launched their first one in 1852 and many more throughout the 1850’s. These steam colliers would have been simple vessels and building a ship for a prestigious organization like Norddeutscher Lloyd would have been a “big deal.” The Newcastle Library has Palmers archives; at least their letter book.
So, what kind of vessel was Schwan? Unfortunately the Survey gives us not much to go by. She was not a large vessel; 526 gross tons is slightly less than but within the range of a group of 1850’s era steam colliers recently researched by British Author Roy Fenton. She was built by a yard that was very active building iron hauled steam colliers during the 1850’s, and she had a quarterdeck. I think that she was one of Palmers’ steam colliers; specifically a raised quarterdeck Steam collier. Perhaps she was bought by Norddeutscher Llloyd to haul bunker fuel. The Letter Book should clarify this. If my theory is correct, you’re in luck. British Author C. V. Waine has published several books containing drawings of these vessels.
Roger
“Palmers” on the Lloyds survey report is Palmer Brothers, and Co. a famous Northeastern British shipyard. They got their start building iron hulled steam colliers for hauling coal mined in N.E. England to coal-gas plants in London. Founded in 1851, they launched their first one in 1852 and many more throughout the 1850’s. These steam colliers would have been simple vessels and building a ship for a prestigious organization like Norddeutscher Lloyd would have been a “big deal.” The Newcastle Library has Palmers archives; at least their letter book.
So, what kind of vessel was Schwan? Unfortunately the Survey gives us not much to go by. She was not a large vessel; 526 gross tons is slightly less than but within the range of a group of 1850’s era steam colliers recently researched by British Author Roy Fenton. She was built by a yard that was very active building iron hauled steam colliers during the 1850’s, and she had a quarterdeck. I think that she was one of Palmers’ steam colliers; specifically a raised quarterdeck Steam collier. Perhaps she was bought by Norddeutscher Llloyd to haul bunker fuel. The Letter Book should clarify this. If my theory is correct, you’re in luck. British Author C. V. Waine has published several books containing drawings of these vessels.
Roger
Thank you very much. This is great information. I was able to find the Schwan on a site listing Tyne-built ships (https://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/S-Ships/schwan1858.html.) It says that she was a "passenger cargo ship." I know nothing about colliers--did they carry passengers?
I searched this site for other ships built in 1858 by the Palmer company--and found only one...the Schwalbe (https://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/S-Ships/schwalbe1858.html). The two ships are almost exactly similar in their descriptions and must have been built side by side (yard numbers 68 and 67.) The nice thing about the Schwalbe is that there is a picture of her as well (although the name seems to be "Tula" in the picture.)
I don't know...what do you think?
A little more research turns up a list of ships built for Nordeutscher Lloyd (https://www.shipvault.com/company-details?id=35268) and there we see the Schwalbe was renamed the Tula in 1881.
I searched this site for other ships built in 1858 by the Palmer company--and found only one...the Schwalbe (https://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/S-Ships/schwalbe1858.html). The two ships are almost exactly similar in their descriptions and must have been built side by side (yard numbers 68 and 67.) The nice thing about the Schwalbe is that there is a picture of her as well (although the name seems to be "Tula" in the picture.)
I don't know...what do you think?
A little more research turns up a list of ships built for Nordeutscher Lloyd (https://www.shipvault.com/company-details?id=35268) and there we see the Schwalbe was renamed the Tula in 1881.
Last edited:
These are great news, that you have found so much information already
Yes, what would we do without the Internet?
Another site (https://www.faergelejet.dk/faerge.php?id=5252&n=1) indicates that the Schwan was renamed the Minsk in 1881, and that she was scrapped in 1905.
In terms of my ancestor, Martin Tjaden, this research leads me to think that he may not have stayed on board the Schwan very long. The Schwan's trade route 1858 to 1881 was Bremen to England, probably carrying coal. She could carry 30 passengers and had 30 berths.
However, I know that Martin ended up a sailor on the Great Lakes as early as 1869 (he was married in Chicago in September of that year). Family stories have him working on the Great Lakes while also farming in a small community in Iowa. Sailoring was probably a summer job while his wife and kids (11 of them) worked the farm. He died, aged 44, probably from alcoholism.
I would really like to find out more about the ships he sailed on the Great Lakes. They were probably ships similar to the Schwan engaged in carrying cargo. However, I have not been able to find any records of Great Lakes ships/sailors.
Does anyone have any suggestions where to look?
Another site (https://www.faergelejet.dk/faerge.php?id=5252&n=1) indicates that the Schwan was renamed the Minsk in 1881, and that she was scrapped in 1905.
In terms of my ancestor, Martin Tjaden, this research leads me to think that he may not have stayed on board the Schwan very long. The Schwan's trade route 1858 to 1881 was Bremen to England, probably carrying coal. She could carry 30 passengers and had 30 berths.
However, I know that Martin ended up a sailor on the Great Lakes as early as 1869 (he was married in Chicago in September of that year). Family stories have him working on the Great Lakes while also farming in a small community in Iowa. Sailoring was probably a summer job while his wife and kids (11 of them) worked the farm. He died, aged 44, probably from alcoholism.
I would really like to find out more about the ships he sailed on the Great Lakes. They were probably ships similar to the Schwan engaged in carrying cargo. However, I have not been able to find any records of Great Lakes ships/sailors.
Does anyone have any suggestions where to look?