Maritime Museums and archives/drawings and licensing

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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some of you may of noticed the topic on fees, pirates and kits is missing that is because It was being edited and polished up a bit and the entire thing got deleted, a big giant oops!. the admin is working on finding it and trying to restore it If the original can not be restored the topic will be redone.

there is more of the topic to explore and it will set the guide lines for kits, drawings, on line classes, what can and can not be done. This will never cover all the legal aspects but it will give some general points we all should consider, hopeful we can in general define "pirating" and who is doing what.

some see this as nothing but political ranting well you are not seeing the big picture this effects us all and the manufacture of the kits we build and the policies of the ship modeling community in general. As part of the staff we do try to keep all this behind close doors which for the most part we have done, (you have no idea what really goes on) but that is getting more and more difficult because of "social media"
I realize all of us would love to sit back and just build and enjoy this hobby and that is our goal here BUT to do that we must deal with everything and those making it difficult for everyone.
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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most of the original information was backed up so yes there will be a Fees ,pirates, kits and copyrights will be back as a 2.0 and better with more detailed information.

so this thread is "open for business" but i am keeping it tight and under close watch i do not want trash talkin just facts and how it all works
 
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janos

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Well done, Guys, looking forward to seeing the thread again. Interesting subject to which you can expect lots of comments.
Janos
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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first i must say late nights 1 laptop and 2 Dell graphic work stations running all at once and in contact with the staff here BAM! one wrong key stroke gone wrong.
so here begins 2.0 the research into the Fees, pirates, kits and copyrights.

this will be an investigative look into the private, commercial and academic use of museum and government archives.

what i am doing is creating a project using copyright plans from the National Maritime Museum in the UK this project is based on the following sources
collection of Admiralty plans and the Archaeological and historical investigations of the three war of 1812 wrecks at Kingston Ontario
HMS St Lawrence, HMS Kingston and the HMS Burlington by Jonathan Moore copyright 2006

princess charlotte.jpg

what your now looking at is called "fair use" that is i am doing nothing with the image or the ship Princess Charlotte i am just showing it to you.

all the bases are covered by the Crown copyright and the museum so if i do anything with this ship it becomes a commercial project and that involves Fees, licenses, royalties.
the fees and licenses start right from the start For everyone it is part of the process. rule 1
Jonathon Moore to begin his investigation he needed a license which he got
license to conduct archaeological exploration or fieldwork 1999-096sitesBbGd-6, BbGc-45 and BbGc-46

for me to produce a kit i need a license that is step one
to get that license i have to fill out the proper paperwork and submit a report who i am, can i afford to purchase a license, what am i going to do with that license, how many kits and the cost per kit,
this is then reviewed by the legal staff and they draw up a license if you meet all the requirements.

how about i do this

tracing01.JPG

i am not going to use the museums image of the Princess Charlotte i am going to trace it in CAD and design my kit from my drawings. I am not even going to include the museums drawings.
even to go as far as base the kit on the archaeological work of Jonathan and develop my drawings from the filed work.

the Crown is already figured that out nope you do anything commercial with the Princess Charlotte you need a license They own the Princess Charlotte end of story.




We retain the copyright of the plans, so anything produced from those plans would need to be licensed through the National Maritime Museum. If you were to redraw the plans and effectively use them as an artist reference, and as it is commercial because you are producing a commercial product, the fee would be £200 + VAT (artist reference fee), plus £50 + VAT per image file.

As the plans are being copied and reproduced for the commercial sale of the model kits, we would usually consider this as a brand licensing project for which our brand is placed on your product. The fees would depend on the number of kits you are producing and the retail price of the product.

If you are interested in going down the brand licensing route we can put you in touch with the relevant member of staff.
 

trippwj

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Off to a good start, but the following is eroneous:

the Crown is already figured that out nope you do anything commercial with the Princess Charlotte you need a license They own the Princess Charlotte end of story.

They only assert ownership of the image of the Princess Charlotte found on parchment within their collections. That is a very important distinction - they own the copyright to that image aand license the use of that image for specific purposes. If the archeological study used the NMM image as the basis for their drawing then they are likely within the allowable use under the license they were issued. If, however, the derivative product is proposed for commercial use it is beyong the scope of the license and is not allowable without a separate license.

That specific requirement may be a stretch - whether a product derived from a licensed use of copyrighted images can have copyright orotection asserted by the original owner. That aspect of copyright and intelectual property law may vary between countries, as may the reciprocity of legal recognition (does the UK acknowledge US intelectual property law and assist enfircement? How about Serbia and Canada reciprocity?) That aspect is, perhaps, the important distinction in transnational infringement consideration.
 

janos

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Am I the only one confused here? Is Wayne's latest comment part of the re-structuring ie. has it been just copied back from the archives or is it a new comment? Shouldn't the thread be blocked from new comments until the re-structuring commences? It starts to be very confusing!
Janos
 

zoly99sask

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Am I the only one confused here? Is Wayne's latest comment part of the re-structuring ie. has it been just copied back from the archives or is it a new comment? Shouldn't the thread be blocked from new comments until the re-structuring commences? It starts to be very confusing!
Janos
I think Wayn’s comment has nothing to do with Dave’s post,also Dave is posting what he received from NMM not his own ideas,I will lock the thread until further notice.
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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as Zoltan pointed out I am going by the letter of the law set down by the museum.

if Wayne is indeed a international copyright lawyer his comments are valid. if he isn't then it adds nothing but confusion or misdirection from the issues.

I am not questing the rules of the museum and their statements are not open for interpretation. There are what they are if they say a license is needed to produce a kit of the Princess Charlotte so be it.


part of the original thread went off track and it is festering hate toward certain group and people this is not a lynch mob. the following is my personal statements it begins with me and ends with me and be summed up as follows

Should the Queen wake up one day and put her foot down and have the museum crack down on all the pirates taking property of the Crown and turning it into commercial merchandise we would see a large amount of model ship kits without the proper license disappear from the market. If a group within the ship modeling community decide to take the moral ground and wage a war on piracy it is a good idea to remember

Jesus faced a mob that was eager to execute a woman caught in adultery. He put a stop to it with a simple challenge: anyone who has no sin in their life should step forward and throw the first stone. That sentence is cited as a reminder to avoid judging others when there are faults in your own life that need to be addressed.

The solid moral ground you think your standing on is actually quicksand so be careful, oh so very careful of what you accuse others of.

Seems to be the artists, hobbyist, manufactures of model ship products are all in the same glass house so if people start throwing stones the entire house may fall.

Once you open Pandora’s box you cannot close it again

A "Pandora's box" is a metaphor in our modern languages, and the proverbial phrase refers to a source of endless complications or trouble arising from a single, simple miscalculation. a process that generates many complicated problems as the result of unwise interference in something.


I suggest if you do have comments or something to add to this topic please PM Zoltan and we will review it, if it adds insight or information it will be added if it is just rambling nonsense it will not be added.
This is to inform and educate based on statements of those in authority.
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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from the plans I drew the question is what can I do or not do with them according to the rules set forth by the owners of the original work. ie. the National Maritime Museum and the office of the Crown copyright.

pc1.JPG

parts of the drawings are not even included in the original such as the framing plan for the deck or the stern which is based on a painting of the Princess Charlotte

pc2.JPG


pc3.JPG
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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there is a sharp and clear line between private use and commercial use of the intellectual property held by the museum.

yes I can create a laser cutting file for my own use

pc5.JPG

I can also create a working file to build a plank on bulkhead model

bulkhead set.JPG
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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We retain the copyright of the plans, so anything produced from those plans would need to be licensed through the National Maritime Museum. If you were to redraw the plans and effectively use them as an artist reference, and as it is commercial because you are producing a commercial product, the fee would be £200 + VAT (artist reference fee), plus £50 + VAT per image file.

so if I choose to make a kit from my plans I need a license there is no ifs, ands or buts about it that license would cost me $328.00+ taxes from the museum. This is for the artistic use of their property. Without that license the kit I produce would be considered a pirated kit.
Now I did have the question is that fee per kit or is it an artists license fee?
the answer from the legal staff

Thanks for your email. I can confirm that this is a one-off fee and not per kit.
If you would like to proceed, please let me know and I will email you an Order Form.


there is a difference between artist reference and brand licensing fees


As the plans are being copied and reproduced for the commercial sale of the model kits, we would usually consider this as a brand licensing project for which our brand is placed on your product. The fees would depend on the number of kits you are producing and the retail price of the product.
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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lets say I take my drawings of the Princess Charlotte and build a hull and finish the model. As long as I did this as a personal hobby and the model is a one off that is private use. I can even sell this model there is no problem.
If the plan is to produce a limited edition of 10 models to sell now I stepped over the line from private use to commercial use. If I were to take the models to a gallery it is in my best interest to show my artist reference license bought and paid for from the museum that holds the intellectual rights.

pca1.jpgpca2.jpg
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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They only assert ownership of the image of the Princess Charlotte found on parchment within their collections. That is a very important distinction - they own the copyright to that image and license the use of that image for specific purposes.
Wayne


correct the Crown owns the image of the Princess Charlotte so as they stated anything created from that image requires a license. No I can not work from the archaeological work and create a kit that license does not extend to that commercial use.

If the archeological study used the NMM image as the basis for their drawing then they are likely within the allowable use under the license they were issued.

The images were used as part of the study and actually published in the book by Jonathan Moore. Under that image of the original plans of the Princess Charlotte is the line

(courtesy: National Maritime Museum ZAZ0131,reg No73)

in the academic world licensing is suspended for archaeological study and educational use. A question is can Jonathan create a commercial kit? I think a separate license is needed to do that as you stated below


If, however, the derivative product is proposed for commercial use it is beyong the scope of the license and is not allowable without a separate license.
Wayne



so we can conclude you can not create a kit from a plan held by the NMM without first obtaining a license to do so. In the academic world it is kept all proper and all licenses if needed and all use is noted to the source.

In the world of commercial use pirates steal intellectual property not only from one another but also from the institutions who manage collections. They will produce and sell kits from Admiralty plans without the proper licensing.
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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even though I worked with Jonathan Moore in the early days he provided me with field data and I created CAD drawings and 3D drawings those drawings belong to me. However, Jonathan provided me with data I provided him with the drawings.
Even though the CAD drawings are mine and the Crown can not claim any rights to them, as long as I do not produce a commercial kit for sale. or for that matter anything including a set of modeling plans. That is the pirating line if I do produce a kit its pirating the museums intellectual property.

questions I am researching is

what if this project gets a lot of interest and a forum or on line group wants to build models from my drawings and Jonathan's work? is it an educational class? is it commercial in nature? well I am working with the museum and Crown copyright office so I am waiting on answers.

stern frame4.jpg


back bone.jpg

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Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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pirating is nothing buy greed
why do it? have all the proper licensing, permission, pay the royalties it supports the hobby and those who maintain historical collections.

here lies the bones of the Princess Charlotte



 
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Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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while we wait for the museum and crown copyright to weigh in on the Princess Charlotte

lets look at another HMS ship the General Hunter which was built by the British on the lakes and fought in the war of 1812.
Her bones were found and an archaeological study done.
Again I worked with the archaeological team and I was provided with the field notes and field drawings to produce CAD drawings and a model. Can I go commercial with this?
yes and the difference is there are no drawings held by the museum of the General Hunter yes it is a ship of the Royal Navy but nothing exists in the museums collection.
 

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Gentlemen. I am not engaged into money making schemes associated with industrial selling any products related to wood ships modelling. I am just a hobbyist. Maybe this is why I don’t understand what this theme is about. Could anyone please explain?
 

janos

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Gentlemen. I am not engaged into money making schemes associated with industrial selling any products related to wood ships modelling. I am just a hobbyist. Maybe this is why I don’t understand what this theme is about. Could anyone please explain?
Beyond the obvious content and lots of information this is Dave's way saying in a very gentlemanly and elequant way that there is no point accusing someone else of pirating if you do the same...
Janos
 

donfarr

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YES HE DOES IT IN A GENTLEMANLY WAY, ME KNOW WAY, REMINDS ME OF MY LATE WIFE FAVORITE SAYING AND SHE WAS A MASTER AT ( IT IS NOT WHAT YOU SAY BUT HOW YOU SAY IT ) SIMPLE YET SO HARD. Don
 
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