HMS Prince William was a 64-gun third-rate ship of the line of the Royal Navy. She had previously been the Nuestra Señora de la Asunción but was better known as Guipuzcoano, an armed merchantman of the Spanish Basque Guipuzcoan Company of Caracas. Guipuzcoano was sailing as the flagship of an...
HMS Ontario (1780) HMS Ontario was a British warship that sank in a storm in Lake Ontario on 31 October 1780, during the American Revolutionary War. She was 22-gun snow, and, at 80 feet (24 m) in length, the largest British warship on the Great Lakes at the time. The shipwreck was discovered in...
Zoly, What about the intermediate and novice builders that we wont to continue in the hobby, there is not enough plans done like MIKE41, to attract the novice and intermediate builders, and what about(SINCE THIS SITE HAS GROWN TO SUCH AN INTERNATIONAL FORUM) having more then one group build going on, like for instance the HMS ALERT, and the BOMB KETCH, that way you can satisfy someone like BRIAN and someone like ME, DO NOT FORGET THE INTERMEDIATE AND NOVICE MODELERS THEY ARE THE BACK BONE OF THIS GREAT HOBBY AND MAKE IT GO AND GROW one thing about SOS is there is no doubt some SPECTALIOUR MODELERS ON THIS SITE, THAT BUILDERS LIKE ME CAN ONLY DREAM ABOUT DOING, IT ALSO HAS SOME VERY NEW MODELERS STARTING OUT, let us keep them on, THEY ARE NOT READY FOR SCRATCH BUILDS OR VICTORY, or CONSTTUTIONS etc, AGAIN JUST MY OPION, keep the discussion going. Don
Dave you are corect in what you are describing, like I said there can be more then one going on at the same time, but the experience of the MSB projects page should teach us something like the old saying about the DEFINITION OF INSANITY IS TO KEEP DOING THE SAME THING AND EXPECTING A DIFFERENT RESULT( AINT GOING TO HAPPEN) to me not only should there be enough members to get started on the group build we should pick subjects the already exist to the extent that it can be a go right away. Don
One other thing to remember, THIS FORUM, unlike other forums seems to be VERY ACTIVE IN THE PARTISAPATION of active building logs by the membership, I remember a recent post by a new member wondering if this forum only allows models of warships and wondering why there is no postings of merchant ships etc, we need to bring this type of modeler into the fold, he is not ready for scratch builds, but can learn a lot from something like the BLANDFORD GROUP BUILD, but not all can prduce an understanable plans and devlopments like MIKE41 can do. Don
I suggest approaching this from a new perspective. The old way was lets come up with a group project and try to get the membership involved. Like you said don that does not work because of a diversity of interests among the group.
I think the way to do it is like mike has done just create a build and put it out there. if it draws enough interest a group build will naturally evolve from the build. If it does not evolve into a group build so what it is still a good build log and source of information.
the down side is having enough qualified builders cranking out the "seed" build or prototype build.
Dave, there are enough QUALIFIED BUILDERS ON THIS SITE, many master builders, the problem is to get someone to begin it and a follow it through, again I go back to MSB projects, we learned a hard lesson there, unless there is a profesional as part of a buisness involved, depending on hobby builders is iffy at best, to much going on in life,ie (WORK, FAMILY, HEALTH etc) to get it done, HAVE NOT HEARD FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMUNITY ON THIS TOPIC, PLEASE CHIME IN with your ideas. Don
Another possibility for a group built would be also using an existing planset or monographie, which is used by a group of modelers.
I am think in the direction of f.e. a smaller vessel published by ancre or Gerard Delacroix.
I think, that the bigger vessels, frigates or even ship of the line would take too much time and the number of modelers making such a model up to the end would be small. Also I think a group built should educate the modelers with sharing the individual experiences during the construction by the participants.
So why not a smaller vessel for which good, detailed and complete drawings are available?
A little bit like the Les Gros Ventre group......
Ordered: 16 February 1817
Laid down: June 1818
Launched: 11 May 1820
Decommissioned: 1845, transferred to Coastguard
Fate: Sold and broken up 1870
Class and type: Cherokee-class brig-sloop
Tons burthen: 235 bm; 242 for second voyage
Length: 90.3 ft (27.5 m)
Beam: 24.5 ft (7.5 m)
Draught: 12.5 ft (3.8 m)
Sail plan: Brig from 1825)
Complement: 120 as a ship-of-war, 65 plus 9 supernumeraries on second voyage
Armament: 10 guns, reduced to 6 guns for first survey voyage, changed to 7 guns during second survey voyage
The HMS Beagle served as Charles Darwin's floating laboratory on his historic voyage to the Galapagos Islands.
I started a scratch build of this ship in 2016 and it was put on the shelf when I joined SOS. There could be some nice sections or a full build of the ship as a group build.
If there is any interest, we can add this to the possible group build list.
Uwe and Mike, Excellent ideas this is what we need in this discussion, but THERE IS A PROBLEM TO BE AWARE OF, that is who is to make the decision, I THINK THAT A SMALL GROUP OF MEMBERS OF SOS ESPECIALLY INCLUDING INTERNATIONAL members should decide, but remember our experience with MSB PROJECTS, let us not talk this to death, and also there is NOTHING THAT SAYS WE ONLY HAVE TO HAVE ONE PROJECT, THERE COULD BE SEVERAL, EACH ONE UNDER A DESIGNATED BUILDER, the BUILDER SHOULD DEVELOPE THE PROTOTYPE if ONE IS NEEDED and continue giving advice like MIKE IS DOING ON THE BLANDFORD build, and UWE, I have always wanted to do an Ancre build, I think I am ready for one would love to see a POF ANCRE OR GERARD build my only concern is AND THIS IS JUST ME I WOULD NOT ATTEMPT ONE WITH OUT A FRAMING JIG( DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A HAHAN TYPE ONE BUT ONE LIKE DAVE STEVENS DID FOR THE CAUSTIC OR THE CHINESE TYPE, and yes Mike yours is a GREAT IDEA especially the X SECTIONS once plans are devoloped you could have X SECTIONS AT THE BOW, MID SHIP, and STERN, and why not copy some of the Chinese X SECTIONS, this type to keep the interest up,,,,,l ALSO RIGHT NOW WE HAVE 2 BUILDS READY TO GO, THE ONTARIO X SECTION AND THE BOMB KETCH CHECK WITH DAVE STEVENS on THAT ONE AGAIN JUST MY OPION. Don
I agree here: first of all the number of starters for a big vessel will be already limited, than we will have with a big vessel also extremely different speeds of modeling, Maybe somebody is finished already after 1 year another one would need 5 years.......and as Dave mentioned, some will stop working in between.
Right away, apologies for the very, very long post but although I am not a very active participant ..... bare with me ........
First, one has to figure out why introduce a “group build”.
Is it to promote a specific documented work put forth by someone: plans, etc…? To assist members in learning about building a specific item / boat, ship? To assist modelers in general building techniques through a very particular project?
Is it to get modelers to move from plastic kits to wooden kits to POB scratch building to POF construction, although those last 2 can be easily represented in the same build?
If it is to just build and show the results from a number of builders, logs are enough and available.
In my view…..
A group build should be informative. It should contain a lot of generic information such as techniques that can be applied to other projects. One should acquire some knowledge from it, not just practice and critique. This said, it should not be everything to everybody as it does not have to have 100s of participating members, just a “good” representation of willing beginner, intermediate and seasoned members. One cannot worry too much about short-term popularity and high public active participation.
A group build can be unique or considered for less popular types of construction.
A good starting point, once one has figured out its purpose, is to choose something different. We see a lot of ships being built following the same general framing practices.
Time: It is certainly not something a lot of people have a lot of. A group project is not a “paint by number”, short-term endeavor and is certainly not for everyone to participate in. Modelers who do not build can still be welcome to participate by having outside input, by being part of the support group as long as they have some knowledge about the subject: be it have the plans and read related documentation. This kind of help can have great value.
Imaging a ship build using different techniques, traditional built-up framing, upright construction using what has become a more common up-side jig practiced by many, the Hahnn method, etc…. looking at our modeler friends from Russia, they seem to yet have a different way. Having a group build documenting all the different ways “under one roof” could be a treat. Solving communication issues: mainly language barriers after having attracted members from different area of the world who do not necessarily have a handle of English.
17th Century French ships where built using a different framing technique. Much more intricate which, along with the rich ornamentation is likely to be the reason why they are not popular. A group build of such a vessel may have the effect of changing that by concentrating on just building the structure, excluding most of the décor. Heck, the ship does not have to be entirely built and ready to take to the sea.
And here what I was preparing to post earlier today before I found out that Notre Dame de Paris was in flame: a sad day ……
I will just take a few minutes of your time to give you my impressions and personal experience in setting up a group build from a well-documented source.
As Dave S. mentioned, this site can already be considered as a collection of “group builds” as you have a number of members dedicated to building the same ships, in some cases encompassing kits and scratch constructions: although as far as kits are concerned, they cover several different manufacturers. And in most cases are just individual construction journals exempt of much explanation about the actual construction. They look more like construction photo essays.
Whatever the source, kit, a well put-together monograph or even a home made design, the documentation of any build should be looked at as an extended version of the kit construction manual (for kit builders) or an extension of the monograph (as for the works of ANCRE, for example). Simply collecting images of a construction progress is motivating but surely not enough. It is often said that an image is worth a thousand words but in this activity it is all about the process, and the description of that process through discussion and more importantly explanations as too how to get there: technically, by explaining and demonstrating in images and text how to achieve a task.
I would think that most modelers go the kit route because they either do not feel comfortable in “manufacturing” the parts needed or they do not have the equipment or the space to do it.
I will not talk very much about wooden kits as I do not have any experience with them, but in regards to monographs, although the written portion is very well presented to the potential builder, they usually need some clarifications with extra documentation material: especially if one is to pay attention to being historically correct. This said and I cannot emphasize it enough, it all depends on the objective to be achieved by each builder. A group build should be motivating and have an equal, if not more importantly, an educational value.
That educational value consists of several parts: some, more important than others.
Here are two…..
First: assistance reading, interpreting and understanding the plans. To sum it up, getting assistance in setting everything up in the right direction.
Second: the manufacturing of pieces of the puzzle: yes, building a model from “scratch” is like putting a puzzle together. The only difference is that the pieces have to be manufactured by the modeler. And that is where most modelers have some issues. These issues are the result of several factors, which can be obvious to many of you: modeler’s ability, experience, technical knowledge and you may add to that……
The educational value of such a project should be multi-level, just as being accommodating to multiple level builders, from beginner to intermediate depending on ability, experience, knowledge, equipment and resources. The whole thing guided or at least supported by one or preferably several experienced and knowledgeable builders ready to answer any question as they relate to their stage of the build. The author of the documentation work is a bonus that cannot be measured and when available most valuable.
When first embarking in the construction of a model ship, the builder is motivated. Following a group build as a spectator helps in staying motivated in a variety of ways for one’s own purpose. For the person who is just following, looking at the progress may contribute to setting personal goals as far as quality of the work presented by other people is concerned: quality that can be applied to another project the on-looker may be involved in. It should also present generic technical information used by participating members as some of those techniques may differ from one builder to the next: there is always more than one way to make or shape something.
For the person actively participating in the build, the same would apply: motivation, quality “control”, technique, etc….. The added bonus of a “group build” educational value for participating members (and on-lookers to a certain extent) is the security of having any question related to reading the plans, technique and just general know-how can be answered by any other members: beneficial in the way that the answers directly relate to their own build.
Every modeler is not equal and a group build should be attractive to all participants by covering images and explanations on a variety of subjects and ways to manufacture parts so that everyone can benefit. The only way this is to work is to have all members participate in some fashion. There lays the main problem to make the project as complete as possible. The beginners or the modelers aware of their own ability too often compare their work with that of others and end up silent.
Not everyone can achieve the same quality as all is relative to the modeler’s situation. For example, not everyone has his own or has access to a milling machine, etc…..
Not everyone works at the same speed. Questions are asked: answers are given. The same questions may be asked again later, answers may be given again or updated. The purpose of a group build is exactly that: inform, explain, demonstrate and show: one may add to the list.
Because a lot of people like fancy / grandiose ships, there are several aspects of shipbuilding that require special skills: intricate woodworking, metal work, carving, rope making and more. Some of those skills would be fairly simple to acquire under some guidance: which would alleviate long trial and error sessions for the uninitiated. This is where the supporting members become essential and should be ready to assist and maybe become “teachers”.
In most cases, information and available technology form a double edge sword, as it is possible to do things the older way: before all these tools were available. In this case, one must take a reality check and be content with what the average guy could do with his own hand and the possibility of great work exists. One must master his / her own expectations. Realizing this may just help someone not get discouraged.
When I created the Gos Ventre Group years ago, it was partly to introduce a new monograph but mostly to unite a bunch of modelers from different locations with the same goal: building a ship. It quickly became much more than that. So much so for me that it became my second full-time job. The passion and commitment I made to myself and to the group took over: it was a very important part of my life at the time. No regret for what it all became at the time but in the end my family suffered and it all ended suddenly and tragically partly as a result ...... my fault and I cannot apologize enough for it to the members of that group of fine modelers.
The way I have always looked at a such a “group build” is a sort of modeling encyclopedia where everything is available and organized in a way that every step is described in as many way as possible: my grandiose idea at the time. Being a long-term endeavor, the information would flow as the build progresses at a different pace for most members. New members joining in as older members stop contributing their own progress but remaining active in a support role. In the end, I would consider this kind of recorded documentation as timeless.
A group build almost needs to become its own separate entity or a dedicated site within an administration setup. Building logs are great to drive traffic to a site but this type of direct, informative “group build” is what the serious business of the site is or would be: a special, dedicated place to learn and teach, a specialized place to access information and resources on a particular subject within a particular time period. A place dedicated to one goal through the construction of one ship: adding assistance with all the generic stuff involved in the model ship / boat building activity. Furthermore, a place where one would acquire knowledge about the subject or refine his / her knowledge.
Again, It is a lot to read and digest but if you have made it through the entire post, my apologies for the lengthy text...