Playing detective

[Don Case]

I'm putting this out here where more people may see it and give their opinions rather than on my build log. https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/hms-discovery1789-scratch-build-in-1-48.8325/
I have images of a couple of paintings by Steve Mayo. In both of them he shows stern davits on the Discovery1789. It's a little early for stern davits that supposedly came 5-10 years later but he claims he has provenance in the form of a painting made in 1790. This got me thinking of putting davits on my model but I wanted a little more. I am reading Vancouver's journal and found an intriguing little story Volume 1 pg 424. After Vancouver gave up trying to navigate the Columbia River on Oct 21 1792 they headed south. They were in storms until Nov 3 when seaman John Davison was washed overboard. Fortunately he was a good swimmer and stayed afloat until he was rescued using "our small boat from the stern". This caught my eye. That could be the boat from the stern davits. But, quite often they towed their boats, it could be one of those. Another but, if they were planning to be at sea for about three weeks wouldn't they load all the boats, especially when the weather started getting rough.
Waddaya think? Davits or towed boat?

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Like any research topic, you have to weight the significance of each bit of evidence you find. Did the artist paint the stern davits as part of artistic license and perhaps erroneously or is this hard evidence that this innovative feature appeared on the vessel long before it was popular on other vessels? The truth often is, in these queries, that we may never really know. The fact that "we may never know" is one of the greatest plaques to ship modelers like ourselves. I have experienced it with many features because the ships I favor in modeling are very old, being early 17th century ships, and the older the vessel, the less we generally know about how it was built and how it appeared. It's a sort of curse.

Each of us has to place a level of importance on each piece of information. One person may place more weight on different its of data and end up with a ship model that looks quite different from the one we envisioned. All you can do it set the scales for the data using your best judgement, and perhaps allow later discoveries of knowledge prove your guesses right or wrong, if such information ever surfaces. Until then, be happy with your choices, knowing that others may disagree with them but that you made them to the best of your knowledge.

Sometimes entire ships become reality just because someone made a model, and a story was added to it, and now at least three model manufacturers produce thousands of kits. That is how the Spanish vessel San Felipe came into being. What started as a ship model representing a particular type of vessel in a generic sense suddenly is marketed with a back story thus:

The san Felipe, launched in 1690, was one of the most beautiful Spanish galleons of the xvii century. She was the lead ship of the famous Spanish armada. The san Felipe displaced more than 1000 tons and was armed with 96 cannons, enabling her to take on the most formidable ships in the French and British navies.

And none of it ever happened. Funny how even the ship modeling hobby can spawn legends.

The point is that even your model's features may be taken up as canon, and copied by so many others that they become accepted facts. Some people even believe that Captain Nemo and his famous submarine were real... and that the Earth is flat.

 

[PT-2]

Like any research topic, you have to weight the significance of each bit of evidence you find. Did the artist paint the stern davits as part of artistic license and perhaps erroneously or is this hard evidence that this innovative feature appeared on the vessel long before it was popular on other vessels? The truth often is, in these queries, that we may never really know. The fact that "we may never know" is one of the greatest plaques to ship modelers like ourselves. I have experienced it with many features because the ships I favor in modeling are very old, being early 17th century ships, and the older the vessel, the less we generally know about how it was built and how it appeared. It's a sort of curse.

Each of us has to place a level of importance on each piece of information. One person may place more weight on different its of data and end up with a ship model that looks quite different from the one we envisioned. All you can do it set the scales for the data using your best judgement, and perhaps allow later discoveries of knowledge prove your guesses right or wrong, if such information ever surfaces. Until then, be happy with your choices, knowing that others may disagree with them but that you made them to the best of your knowledge.

Sometimes entire ships become reality just because someone made a model, and a story was added to it, and now at least three model manufacturers produce thousands of kits. That is how the Spanish vessel San Felipe came into being. What started as a ship model representing a particular type of vessel in a generic sense suddenly is marketed with a back story thus:

The san Felipe, launched in 1690, was one of the most beautiful Spanish galleons of the xvii century. She was the lead ship of the famous Spanish armada. The san Felipe displaced more than 1000 tons and was armed with 96 cannons, enabling her to take on the most formidable ships in the French and British navies.

And none of it ever happened. Funny how even the ship modeling hobby can spawn legends.

The point is that even your model's features may be taken up as canon, and copied by so many others that they become accepted facts. Some people even believe that Captain Nemo and his famous submarine were real... and that the Earth is flat.

@ Darvis Architects - That is a very well reasoned and stated reply to "provenance" vetting. Another obvious question is to where the person stating something learned of it and was that source vetted and correct or just a continuation of the prior traditional concept. A lie told often enough becomes truth, IMHO, and heard elsewhere but I don't have that source. It is the old smell test which does not solve the issue but raises a reconsideration. The quotation from the journal is too generic and generalized to be a definitive answer IMOH. Rich (PT-2)

 

[Gilles Korent]

Stern davits for a ship's boat were in use before 1789.
G

 

[dockattner]

Like any research topic, you have to weight the significance of each bit of evidence you find. Did the artist paint the stern davits as part of artistic license and perhaps erroneously or is this hard evidence that this innovative feature appeared on the vessel long before it was popular on other vessels? The truth often is, in these queries, that we may never really know. The fact that "we may never know" is one of the greatest plaques to ship modelers like ourselves. I have experienced it with many features because the ships I favor in modeling are very old, being early 17th century ships, and the older the vessel, the less we generally know about how it was built and how it appeared. It's a sort of curse.

Each of us has to place a level of importance on each piece of information. One person may place more weight on different its of data and end up with a ship model that looks quite different from the one we envisioned. All you can do it set the scales for the data using your best judgement, and perhaps allow later discoveries of knowledge prove your guesses right or wrong, if such information ever surfaces. Until then, be happy with your choices, knowing that others may disagree with them but that you made them to the best of your knowledge.

Sometimes entire ships become reality just because someone made a model, and a story was added to it, and now at least three model manufacturers produce thousands of kits. That is how the Spanish vessel San Felipe came into being. What started as a ship model representing a particular type of vessel in a generic sense suddenly is marketed with a back story thus:

The san Felipe, launched in 1690, was one of the most beautiful Spanish galleons of the xvii century. She was the lead ship of the famous Spanish armada. The san Felipe displaced more than 1000 tons and was armed with 96 cannons, enabling her to take on the most formidable ships in the French and British navies.

And none of it ever happened. Funny how even the ship modeling hobby can spawn legends.

The point is that even your model's features may be taken up as canon, and copied by so many others that they become accepted facts. Some people even believe that Captain Nemo and his famous submarine were real... and that the Earth is flat.

Wait. 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea wasn't a documentary? You have crushed my childhood. RIP Nautilus.

 

[Don Case]

Stern davits for a ship's boat were in use before 1789.
G

The only resource other than the net that I have is Peter Goodwin's English Man of War. He says that stern davits appeared about 1800. If you have evidence to move that forward a few years I would love to hear it. Please

 

[Don Case]

Like any research topic, you have to weight the significance of each bit of evidence you find. Did the artist paint the stern davits as part of artistic license and perhaps erroneously or is this hard evidence that this innovative feature appeared on the vessel long before it was popular on other vessels? The truth often is, in these queries, that we may never really know. The fact that "we may never know" is one of the greatest plaques to ship modelers like ourselves. I have experienced it with many features because the ships I favor in modeling are very old, being early 17th century ships, and the older the vessel, the less we generally know about how it was built and how it appeared. It's a sort of curse.

Each of us has to place a level of importance on each piece of information. One person may place more weight on different its of data and end up with a ship model that looks quite different from the one we envisioned. All you can do it set the scales for the data using your best judgement, and perhaps allow later discoveries of knowledge prove your guesses right or wrong, if such information ever surfaces. Until then, be happy with your choices, knowing that others may disagree with them but that you made them to the best of your knowledge.

Sometimes entire ships become reality just because someone made a model, and a story was added to it, and now at least three model manufacturers produce thousands of kits. That is how the Spanish vessel San Felipe came into being. What started as a ship model representing a particular type of vessel in a generic sense suddenly is marketed with a back story thus:

The san Felipe, launched in 1690, was one of the most beautiful Spanish galleons of the xvii century. She was the lead ship of the famous Spanish armada. The san Felipe displaced more than 1000 tons and was armed with 96 cannons, enabling her to take on the most formidable ships in the French and British navies.

And none of it ever happened. Funny how even the ship modeling hobby can spawn legends.

The point is that even your model's features may be taken up as canon, and copied by so many others that they become accepted facts. Some people even believe that Captain Nemo and his famous submarine were real... and that the Earth is flat.

What would be your take on "our small boat from the stern"?

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

What would be your take on "our small boat from the stern"?

It's a toss-up given the information you have. Gilles didn't cite any of his sources (yet). I would say the painting could be a strong case in favor of using them, depending on who made the painting and when. If the painting was made much later than the vessel, the case for davits could be weakened.

 

[Gilles Korent]

The only resource other than the net that I have is Peter Goodwin's English Man of War. He says that stern davits appeared about 1800. If you have evidence to move that forward a few years I would love to hear it. Please

I would imagine that, as far as the British are concerned, regulations and practices may differ between Royal Navy vessels or Men of War and exploration or merchant ships.
The same would apply for the French. I am actually in the process of translating another work by Jean Boudriot where this feature (ship's boat stowed at the stern) is represented and that is the reason why I replied here.
This French vessel was built in 1784.





G

 

[Don Case]

It's a toss-up given the information you have. Gilles didn't cite any of his sources (yet). I would say the painting could be a strong case in favor of using them, depending on who made the painting and when. If the painting was made much later than the vessel, the case for davits could be weakened.

Gille's picture (Thank you Gilles)gives me hope although it is a French ship.


The picture I have was painted in 2012 which doesn't give it much credence but the artist says he has info.

HMS Discovery & Chatham Becalmed

Captain George Vancouver's HMS Discovery & Chatham becalmed in Puget Sound in the Pacific Northwest on June 9, 1792.BLUE RIBBON AWARD at Mystic Seaport, Connecticut - September 22, 2012.PRINTS AVAILABLE FOR $220.00 + SHIPPING. Please email your request to: info@stevemayoart.com

www.stevemayoart.com

Check out the above link and click on the historical info blue bar.

 

[Gilles Korent]

I surely am not an authority on ship building but the text is explicit: "She was fitted out specifically for her role as a Royal Navy survey and exploration ship".
This type of vessel would likely have had at least a longboat stowed on deck and a much smaller vessel at the stern: easier to lower down when needed.
G.

 

[Don Case]

I surely am not an authority on ship building but the text is explicit: "She was fitted out specifically for her role as a Royal Navy survey and exploration ship".
This type of vessel would likely have had at least a longboat stowed on deck and a much smaller vessel at the stern: easier to lower down when needed

He mentions the wash(Painting) that is in Whitby. I have tried two museums there and they don't know of such a painting. I have also tried to contact Steve Mayo with no luck.

 

[Don Case]

As I was reading Vancouver's journal I jotted down their use of the ships boats. I haven't tallied everything up for sure yet but it looks like she had at least four boats a yawl, two cutters and a launch. Those are just the ones he had reason to mention as used for exploration. I don't know if there were more for the crews comings and goings.

 

[Gilles Korent]

All I am saying is that ship's boat were stowed using davits located at the stern before 1789. The French seem to have been doing it on merchant type ships so there is little doubt that British and others were doing the same.

Journals are not usually written as fictional documents.
G

 

[Don Case]

All I am saying is that ship's boat were stowed using davits located at the stern before 1789. The French seem to have been doing it on merchant type ships so there is little doubt that British and others were doing the same.

Journals are not usually written as fictional documents.
G

Thank you very much for your input. Because of your pictures I will be putting stern davits on the Discovery. I have been shot down on this question before so I'm just a little gun shy.