Polyester (PES) vs Cotton(Co) Yarns for Rigging

Korsan

Korsan

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Has anybody experience with PES yarn compared to Co yarn for rigging.Is PES better?
Are the models rigged with PES yarn more sensitıve for dust in long period without protection box.?
Thanks in advance for your recommendations and information:)
 
I can't answer your original question, but I'd like to! I'm a long way off rigging my first wooden ship, but I'm already worried by the thread suppied with the kit... it's too thick for my liking.I'd like to replace it. I don't know about dust but I strongly suspect that any rigging will collect dust. Even if it doesn't the decks/crow's nests and fittings will! It won't really matter if your rigging is relatively free of dust, if what's behind it is covered in the stuff. I live in a house with a cat. They have beautiful silky and fine fur. They cast it and it floats around and sticks to anything!

Despite what you might have heard recently, drop-kicking your cat across the room like the English premiership footballer, Kurt Zouma, does not stop your models becoming infested with cat fur.* I'm going to build a case for my ship. I think that's the only way to keep it pristine.

Here's a link to a (possibly) interesting site. https://www.banaschs.com/cotton-vs-polyester-thread/ I'd go cotton, because, as an engineer, I would guess that the negatives of cotton would be far outweighed by the the fact that plastics like polyethylene suffer massively from 'creep'. Creep, in engineering terms, is the propensity for a material to alter form over time, when exposed to a stress. This stress can be caused just by its own weight. I think that polyethylene will be prone to creep and may sag. Cotton, not so much. This would mean that you get your rigging looking fine with PE, but a year or two later it may sag.

What we need here is first-hand testimony from people who have used both threads.

My bet is cotton... we'll see!

* My cat seemed a bit wary in the last few days. I wondered if she had watched the news broadcasts with me: she was certainly in the room at the time. I reassured her that I didn't even like football, nor does my daughter. I had to tell her that I did not play in defense for West ham. She seemed to accept this testament and now my cat is back to pestering me for food and massgaes... phew!
 
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I have noticed that poly lines, when under tension are like rubber bands. They don't go slack with changes in weather. Cotton can be affected by changed in humidity. Also, cotton is said not to last as many decades of time as other materials. The traditional ship rigging materials are silk and linen. Linen is very hard to find these days, and many use 70 year old linen fishing line when they can find it. Silk was commonly used over 100 years ago in very old models. It is very strong, but can deteriorate, especially in sunlight.
 
Good point, Darivs, cotton is organic and subject to expansion/contraction due to its absorbtion of moisture. I can't see that this would unduly affect a model, though. Polyethylene, if it sags due to creep will be irreparable. Your comments are much appreciated, though. I like silk. I'd be happy to pick apart coloured silk embroidery thread and twist it into new threads. Linen? I wouldn't know where to get it. It's basically flax, though. I could see.

To come back to the OP's point, are we both saying 'No' to polyester? I am.
 
CumbrianLad said:
Good point, Darivs, cotton is organic and subject to expansion/contraction due to its absorbtion of moisture. I can't see that this would unduly affect a model, though. Polyethylene, if it sags due to creep will be irreparable. Your comments are much appreciated, though. I like silk. I'd be happy to pick apart coloured silk embroidery thread and twist it into new threads. Linen? I wouldn't know where to get it. It's basically flax, though. I could see.

To come back to the OP's point, are we both saying 'No' to polyester? I am.
Click to expand...
Two months ago i noticed that he rigging yarns 0.30 and 0.5 mm diameter had lost their stability .At the smoothest touch breaking, I started to replace them.While searching in the web I see the website below. Polyester yarns also recommended.I think PES is more durable than cotton.Cotton absorbs humidity and have less strength .I worked many years in the textile industry with natural and synthetic yarns.One disadvantage of PES is it melts if it is exposed to a flame and electrostatic character for collecting dust.On long period no elongation takes place.
By the way the modelship i started to renew the yarns which i mentioned above is 20 years old
www.modellbau-takelgarn.com
www.modellbau-takelgarn.com

I will probably order Pes yarn for my new model and try it.
 
CumbrianLad said:
It looks like my guess is wrong. I'm happy with that. So... polyester over cotton. I'll go with that. Poyester over silk or linen, though...?
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Good evening Cumbrian, have an experience with cotton cobblers that there are of various colors and diameters
 
Very few people display their models in full sunlight (regardless of being styrene, resin or wood). I would go with silk, it is easily available in fabric stores or on line.
Available in different thickness and colors. I bought 100 yards for about $3.00. It will still good after we are long gone.
 
Hi, Frank 48. Bearing in mind what the OP is asking, would you go with cotton, or are the diameters/colours too much of an issue? To me, the strength/stability of the line is more important. I'd go silk every time. I'm even thinking of taking apart silk embroidery threads for my model.

Coppens, you seem to back silk. It's so much stronger than other threads and can be so fine as to replicate scale rigging well.. That's why I want to replace the rigging on my kit with silk. Tell me if I'm wrong!
 
CumbrianLad said:
Hi, Frank 48. Bearing in mind what the OP is asking, would you go with cotton, or are the diameters/colours too much of an issue? To me, the strength/stability of the line is more important. I'd go silk every time. I'm even thinking of taking apart silk embroidery threads for my model.
Click to expand...
silk, as you well know, is shiny
 
CumbrianLad said:
I can't answer your original question, but I'd like to! I'm a long way off rigging my first wooden ship, but I'm already worried by the thread suppied with the kit... it's too thick for my liking.I'd like to replace it. I don't know about dust but I strongly suspect that any rigging will collect dust. Even if it doesn't the decks/crow's nests and fittings will! It won't really matter if your rigging is relatively free of dust, if what's behind it is covered in the stuff. I live in a house with a cat. They have beautiful silky and fine fur. They cast it and it floats around and sticks to anything!

Despite what you might have heard recently, drop-kicking your cat across the room like the English premiership footballer, Kurt Zouma, does not stop your models becoming infested with cat fur.* I'm going to build a case for my ship. I think that's the only way to keep it pristine.

Here's a link to a (possibly) interesting site. https://www.banaschs.com/cotton-vs-polyester-thread/ I'd go cotton, because, as an engineer, I would guess that the negatives of cotton would be far outweighed by the the fact that plastics like polyethylene suffer massively from 'creep'. Creep, in engineering terms, is the propensity for a material to alter form over time, when exposed to a stress. This stress can be caused just by its own weight. I think that polyethylene will be prone to creep and may sag. Cotton, not so much. This would mean that you get your rigging looking fine with PE, but a year or two later it may sag.

What we need here is first-hand testimony from people who have used both threads.

My bet is cotton... we'll see!

* My cat seemed a bit wary in the last few days. I wondered if she had watched the news broadcasts with me: she was certainly in the room at the time. I reassured her that I didn't even like football, nor does my daughter. I had to tell her that I did not play in defense for West ham. She seemed to accept this testament and now my cat is back to pestering me for food and massgaes... phew!
Click to expand...
Here's a link for you. I used their ropes - excellent!

Screenshot_20220213-144841_Chrome.jpg
 
CumbrianLad said:
I can't answer your original question, but I'd like to! I'm a long way off rigging my first wooden ship, but I'm already worried by the thread suppied with the kit... it's too thick for my liking.I'd like to replace it. I don't know about dust but I strongly suspect that any rigging will collect dust. Even if it doesn't the decks/crow's nests and fittings will! It won't really matter if your rigging is relatively free of dust, if what's behind it is covered in the stuff. I live in a house with a cat. They have beautiful silky and fine fur. They cast it and it floats around and sticks to anything!

Despite what you might have heard recently, drop-kicking your cat across the room like the English premiership footballer, Kurt Zouma, does not stop your models becoming infested with cat fur.* I'm going to build a case for my ship. I think that's the only way to keep it pristine.

Here's a link to a (possibly) interesting site. https://www.banaschs.com/cotton-vs-polyester-thread/ I'd go cotton, because, as an engineer, I would guess that the negatives of cotton would be far outweighed by the the fact that plastics like polyethylene suffer massively from 'creep'. Creep, in engineering terms, is the propensity for a material to alter form over time, when exposed to a stress. This stress can be caused just by its own weight. I think that polyethylene will be prone to creep and may sag. Cotton, not so much. This would mean that you get your rigging looking fine with PE, but a year or two later it may sag.

What we need here is first-hand testimony from people who have used both threads.

My bet is cotton... we'll see!

* My cat seemed a bit wary in the last few days. I wondered if she had watched the news broadcasts with me: she was certainly in the room at the time. I reassured her that I didn't even like football, nor does my daughter. I had to tell her that I did not play in defense for West ham. She seemed to accept this testament and now my cat is back to pestering me for food and massgaes... phew!
Click to expand...
Hi CumbrianLad,
I am building my first model of a wooden sailing ship and after having ummed and ahed as to which material to use for my rigging I decided to use polyester thread. I find cotton too fuzzy. I admit, though, to using cotton to seize my rope ends. I believe a little sag is desirable on some of the rigging, as sag would have been normal on sailing ships, especially on those ropes not supporting masts and bowsprits. I stand corrected if this is not the case.

I read about the cat and Kurt Zouma on the BBC website. As an active animal protector, I do not condone any type of aggression towards animals or causing them harm and it is hoped the law will deal with the perpetrator appropriately. The BBC stated that the RSPCA had since removed the cats from the Zouma house.
It's great to read that your cat feels safe with you!

Good luck with your choice of material and with your build.
 
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Hi LuigiSoft
The ultra ropes sortiment of the Syrene Co. (mentioned in Philski's post) should be similar to the products of Modelbau Takelgarn-Germany.
A blend of 80/20 PES /Co increases tensile - and the tear stress more than 80 % compared to pure cotton. 20 parts of cotton serves for absorbing humidity and gives slight softness to yarn.Until now a always treated the yarns with bee wax.By using PES yarn this be omitted for for the future.
We were also sadly informed about the Zouma - Cat story.My proposal No to Animal Violence should be added to the No to Racism slogan.
Have a nice day
 
Korsan, we are both learning, I think.

Luigisoft, yes, some sag is inevitable. I'm a mechanical engineer so I can tell you absolutely that without infinite tension on a rope/cable, it'll sag. The closer to the horizontal, the more it'll sag: the more tension, the less it'll sag. This sag would not be noticeable on some rigging at the scale we're using, but on others, it certainly would be seen. Just look at photos of sailing ships. There's no way to get a real sail tight to the mast. At our scale, the only sag in rigging we'd be able to see is that induced by the sails, or if other lines pull down on them. Straight (or as near as possible) is best imo, except for sails. A long line, sufficiently angled, like one from the bowsprit to the top of the main mast can have a bit of sag.

That said, sagging of the thread after you instal it on the model and think you've got it about right would be bad.

I like the sound of that 80/20 blend. Thanks from me for the tips.

Korsan. I think we should be free to talk about Zouma. No right-thinking person liked that news story. The French want him prosecuted and so do we in the UK. I saw the vid and it was bad. No To Animal Violence is something I'd think you could add. If you haven't googled it, the fans (from both sides) booed him. They invented chants and sang them, too. I think he's regretting being caught now: caught? His brother posted the video. I think we shouldn't air him too much, though, but you have my respect for mentioning it.
 
Hi CumbrianLad
Sag phenomenon occurs by standing rigs by galloenes , unless you apply equal forces to both side of a rope,which ofcourse doesn't fit to the realty .By a schooner type not such a problem most of the time.
I attached 2 pictures to make the problem visible.

IMG_3504.jpg

IMG_3503.jpg
 
Korsan said:
Hi CumbrianLad
Sag phenomenon occurs by standing rigs by galloenes , unless you apply equal forces to both side of a rope,which ofcourse doesn't fit to the realty .By a schooner type not such a problem most of the time.
I attached 2 pictures to make the problem visible.

View attachment 291293

View attachment 291294
Click to expand...
That's not sag on the galleon, that's a case of overly tight rigging by the builder combined with line shrinkage. Sag is when the line looses tension and goes slack.
 
CumbrianLad said:
Korsan, we are both learning, I think.

Luigisoft, yes, some sag is inevitable. I'm a mechanical engineer so I can tell you absolutely that without infinite tension on a rope/cable, it'll sag. The closer to the horizontal, the more it'll sag: the more tension, the less it'll sag. This sag would not be noticeable on some rigging at the scale we're using, but on others, it certainly would be seen. Just look at photos of sailing ships. There's no way to get a real sail tight to the mast. At our scale, the only sag in rigging we'd be able to see is that induced by the sails, or if other lines pull down on them. Straight (or as near as possible) is best imo, except for sails. A long line, sufficiently angled, like one from the bowsprit to the top of the main mast can have a bit of sag.

That said, sagging of the thread after you instal it on the model and think you've got it about right would be bad.

I like the sound of that 80/20 blend. Thanks from me for the tips.

Korsan. I think we should be free to talk about Zouma. No right-thinking person liked that news story. The French want him prosecuted and so do we in the UK. I saw the vid and it was bad. No To Animal Violence is something I'd think you could add. If you haven't googled it, the fans (from both sides) booed him. They invented chants and sang them, too. I think he's regretting being caught now: caught? His brother posted the video. I think we shouldn't air him too much, though, but you have my respect for mentioning it.
Click to expand...
CumbrianLad,

Yes, sag is difficult to replicate on a model.
I believe ropes on a sea bound ship would be kept taught on standing rigging, adjusting the taughtness where necessary (e.g. shrouds at the dead eyes) and sagging somewhat on running rigging. There is a seperate thread on this site on the subject of sag.
I have decided not to mount sails on my Endeavour. I find the rigging on this model an eye-catcher. Still, some of the running rigging would still have sag. I'll experiment and attempt to create sag by coating the thread in question with a mixture of water and pvc glue, attaching light lead fishing weights to the thread until the thread is dry. If successful I will adopt this method on my ship.

It would be interesting to learn from other members who have gone down the route of creating sag on the ropes of their models, the results achieved and the methods adopted.

Trevor
 
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