Question about Shroud Deadeye Lanyards

[icecreamviking]

I'm a bit confused by the shroud lanyards in this photo (I've examined a few photos of these from multiple angles, it's a bit too dense for my untrained eye to make sense of). I'm not sure if the green and yellow highlighted ropes are all part of the same length, or of the green is the remaining slack from the lanyards secured at the base of the shroud, and the yellow is additional (separate) rope lashed around the lanyards between the deadeyes.

can anyone either:

A: suss out how these lanyards are secured based on the photo attached

or

B: direct me to a book or manual with various methods (I'm aware there are many)

 

[rtwpsom2]

Can you post the original photo as well?

 

[icecreamviking]

Can you post the original photo as well?

I have loads. it's quite difficult to find a clear shot from behind, since the Gunwhale blocks the view partially and there is often also extra rope coiled on the shroud cleats. I'll try and follow up with any better views I find. you may notice these are not all of the same shrouds, some are the main shrouds, and some from the fore shrouds. but most of them seem to be tied in the same fashion.

 

[rtwpsom2]

From what I can tell, these are the lanyards. They knot one end, pass the other end through the deadeyes threes times, then up to the windings above the top deadeye. There they wrap around twice, possible knotted, I am not sure, then back down to wrap around the waist of the lanyards to tighten them.

 

[Jim Fortnam]

I'm not sure if the green and yellow highlighted ropes are all part of the same length, or of the green is the remaining slack from the lanyards secured at the base of the shroud, and the yellow is additional (separate) rope lashed around the lanyards between the deadeyes.

What an interesting set of photo’s thanks.

Consider what job is being done here. The shroud needs to be tensioned, and periodically adjusted, so we can’t just nail it to the side of the ship. Run it down and around a deadeye, with some spare length for later adjustment, and leave couple of turns round the standing part - the green bits.
Nowadays we would use a bottle screw or turn screw, but before them came the idea of joining the nails (chain plates) to the rigging by taking a turn of metal around a deadeye, then you only need to tie the two deadeyes together, and retire them as needed if any adjustment or replacement is needed.
This is the clever bit - by treating the connection as if it is a pulley system, you can apply enough energy to make the shrouds as tight as iron bars, and to retain that energy you wrap the extra length around the lanyards, which also adds a final tweak to the tightening. A quick glance in Peterson’s book about the Melampus (closest book to hand) specifies 10 turns - which provides enough friction to retain the strain. Those are your yellow loops. Your vessel uses 8 loops, as you see on the wider angle shots.

Bit of a light hearted explanation, sorry if you know all that, but whenever I’m stuck I like to go back to ‘what is this part / line trying to do’ and think out what the job is, and somehow it becomes clearer. I get a bit sceptical of the experimental archaeologists? who can barely use a tool coming up with elaborate ideas when anyone used to doing real work can say why a ‘something’ is the way it is - because when you do the job every day you make it as easy as possible.

Jim

 

[icecreamviking]

What an interesting set of photo’s thanks.

Consider what job is being done here. The shroud needs to be tensioned, and periodically adjusted, so we can’t just nail it to the side of the ship. Run it down and around a deadeye, with some spare length for later adjustment, and leave couple of turns round the standing part - the green bits.
Nowadays we would use a bottle screw or turn screw, but before them came the idea of joining the nails (chain plates) to the rigging by taking a turn of metal around a deadeye, then you only need to tie the two deadeyes together, and retire them as needed if any adjustment or replacement is needed.
This is the clever bit - by treating the connection as if it is a pulley system, you can apply enough energy to make the shrouds as tight as iron bars, and to retain that energy you wrap the extra length around the lanyards, which also adds a final tweak to the tightening. A quick glance in Peterson’s book about the Melampus (closest book to hand) specifies 10 turns - which provides enough friction to retain the strain. Those are your yellow loops. Your vessel uses 8 loops, as you see on the wider angle shots.

Bit of a light hearted explanation, sorry if you know all that, but whenever I’m stuck I like to go back to ‘what is this part / line trying to do’ and think out what the job is, and somehow it becomes clearer. I get a bit sceptical of the experimental archaeologists? who can barely use a tool coming up with elaborate ideas when anyone used to doing real work can say why a ‘something’ is the way it is - because when you do the job every day you make it as easy as possible.

Jim

ah I think I understand, I'd read Petersson's other book with a generic square rigged vessel (of a comparable size to the ship in my photos) and he presented a different scheme, but I suppose what you've described is taking this circled section and simply lashing it around the waist of the lanyards instead?

 

[Adry]

Hello

Perhaps the following video explains something about what you are asking.

Cheers

 

[AllanKP69]

Perhaps the following video explains something about what you are asking.

There was no video in your post.


Assuming it is a British ship, the rigging of the lanyards is not how it was done on the original ships. The drawings below are from James Lees Masting and Rigging English Ships of War, page 42. The rigging varies with the type of rope, cable laid or shroud laid. In both cases, the lanyard is laid up the same way.
Allan

 

[rtwpsom2]

If you click on the word "video" in his post it's a link.

 

[AllanKP69]

If you click on the word "video" in his post it's a link.

THANK YOU

 

[Adry]

Sorry, I didn't express that well.

Perhaps the following link: https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/historic-vessel-vega-shrouds-and-deadeyes-set-up.12849/ explains something about what you are asking.

Cheers

 

[Y.T.]

I'm a bit confused

Could you please tell what ship it is you were taking pictures of? As to lanyards being wrapped around itself below the top deadeye, I think this could be the case on any country's ships and time frame as it makes total sense not to cut off the access of the lanyard rope but have it wrapped around below. When retightening the shrouds, some extra rope length is very beneficial.

 

[rtwpsom2]

It's the Hermione.

 

[Kurt Konrath]

That is first time I have ever seen the deadeyes get wrapped between deadeyes. But since this seems to be on a newer rigged ship, the Master may have decided to save the length on the deadeyes cables.

 

[icecreamviking]

That is first time I have ever seen the deadeyes get wrapped between deadeyes. But since this seems to be on a newer rigged ship, the Master may have decided to save the length on the deadeyes cables.

yeah I've been told the ship, as a reproduction, has some notable differences from typical French ships of that time. It was a tremendously expensive ship to build and all the rope (with the exception of safety lines, I think) is handmade with period accurate tools. if these were left long and wrapped just to save a few meters or so of extra rope, I wouldn't be surprised. If I made that much rope by hand I'd be loath to discard any of it

 

[icecreamviking]

Sorry, I didn't express that well.

Perhaps the following link: https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/historic-vessel-vega-shrouds-and-deadeyes-set-up.12849/ explains something about what you are asking.

Cheers

I've seen this exact video! it was super helpful, I've already tied of some other deadeyes elsewhere in this fashion. I'm only being picky about the shrouds because I thought maybe there was some logic to them being treated differently, possibly due to how much greater the load placed on these lanyards is.

 

[icecreamviking]

There was no video in your post.


Assuming it is a British ship, the rigging of the lanyards is not how it was done on the original ships. The drawings below are from James Lees Masting and Rigging English Ships of War, page 42. The rigging varies with the type of rope, cable laid or shroud laid. In both cases, the lanyard is laid up the same way.
Allan

View attachment 534437

yes I saw this same scheme in Lennarth Petersson's book which is based on a British Warship. Jim Fortnam helped me realize Petersson had written a second book about smaller fore and aft vessels. in this one, their Shrouds match my photo reference a bit closer because the lanyard is not lashed around the shroud between the first two seizings. I didn't want to default to this method for only one reason, in my reference you can see that because the lanyards aren't wrapped above the deadeye, the two lengths of the shroud above the throat seizing bow outwards before being drawn together by the mid seizing. on L'Hermione, these two "arms" (for lack of a better word) are used to secure the wooden bar that runs the length of the shrouds (I'm not sure what it's called).

 

[AllanKP69]

There was style of lanyard rigging that came into use, at least on English ships, in 1840 where the lanyard was rigged cutter fashion and very different than the other two styles but this does not match the photos either.

Petersson had written a second book about smaller fore and aft vessels. in this one, their Shrouds match my photo reference a bit closer because the lanyard is not lashed around the shroud between the first two seizings

Regarding the Petersson drawings, can you post a picture of one or more of these?
Thank you!
Allan

 

[icecreamviking]

There was style of lanyard rigging that came into use, at least on English ships, in 1840 where the lanyard was rigged cutter fashion and very different than the other two styles but this does not match the photos either.


Regarding the Petersson drawings, can you post a picture of one or more of these?
Thank you!
Allan

left is the square rigged example derived from the Mempus, right is the fore-aft example derived from the Experiment. you can see what I mean, the Experiment's shrouds have a distinct figure 8 shape before the lanyard is tied off between the seizings. my photo references from L'hermione look like they show an initial passage of the lanyard through the gap between the throat sizing and the deadeye, but im not confident exactly about the exact method. that's what i'd hope somebody else had insight into

 

[AllanKP69]

The ones on the left from Melampus are the same as the shroud laid shown by Lees and make sense. For Experiment, it looks the same to me but just not tightened before being seized. In any case, none of these look like the reproduction of Hermione.
Allan