scratch build choice dilemma

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RichardT

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May 7, 2013
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Hi all,
I am about to start a major project and wanted to build one with built up frames. I finally have a scroll saw to cut out the frames and such.
After reviewing books including the "74 Gun Ship", "Fully Framed Swan" (even ordered the plan), and Tosti's "Naiad", it seemed that, while still way over my head, the Naiad with its hand holding books and detailed and complete set of templates seemed to give me the best chance of completing the build.
But... woe is me. I can no longer obtain book 2 of the series and putting that much effort into a build and not being able to take it all the way through would be very frustrating.

The Swan book 1, looks great, and though appears to be a good deal more difficult build but I am ordering the new book 5 of templates hoping they will cover parts in addition to the frames.

I am looking for suggestions for a scratch build that is has a detailed construction guide and a detailed laden set of parts templates to help with fabrication. I would like it to have documentation that could provide a full, masted and rigged ship of sail. Could be a warship or other ship of sail. I will build it as a partial skeleton to display some of the inner works.

I know I am in way over my head but, I may only have one shot at a fully framed boat and would like to give myself the best chance of completing.
If this all seems ridiculous, I may just have to go with decent kit though I do not know of many that come as fully framed and would really prefer to push my wood fabrication skills.

I appreciate your suggestions.

Richard
 
if this is your first framed hull one thing to consider is the method. Keeping the framing straight and in place is difficult. To improve your chances of building the hull it is best to consider a building jig. On the forum look at the Oliver Cromwell and the Fredrick builds these are Harold Hahn style of building. Another thing to consider is how you will built the frames either a blank and cut out the shape of the frame or build up a frame piece by piece. We have examples of both methods here on the forum.
to be honest a framed hull is way more than just cutting out frames it is more about the construction.

here is an example of the Alfred of 74 guns by Harold Hahn

alfred 1.jpgalfred 2.jpgalfred 7.jpgalfred 9.jpgalfred 10.jpg

or the Hancock
hancock 1.jpghancock 2.jpghancock 4.jpghancock 5.jpg
 
the Swan build is great and very detailed but i do not think it is for any first time builder to a framed model.

As for instructions your best bet is to start a build log and have members work with you and answer questions. The problem with "instructions" are a how it is done but they do not cover problems you as a builder incounter, that is where a live build log comes in
 
Hi RichardT!

Choosing a ship to build a model is affected more than anything by the availability of reference material and information. It has certainly influenced my choices in modeling. On the spectrum of information availability, from a well documented vessel to one of which nothing is known, you have to pick a place where you feel comfortable enough to see the build through. It is extremely difficult to find a vessel that has so much information available that there are virtually no areas of guesswork regarding its features. In fact, most ships are in the 100% unknown category, such as Santa Maria and the Mayflower, for example. Both of those famous ships have been modelled using a generic carrack and wine galleon since there are no historical sources to draw from that describe the vessels in detail. Sticking to a 19th century vessel will yield the most information possible in several examples, such as the French frigates and several British ships. The ships that has the best information available are USS Constitution and HMS Victory, because they still exist, and they have been modelled to death.
 
I am about to start a major project and wanted to build one with built up frames. I finally have a scroll saw to cut out the frames and such.

it will take way more than just a scroll saw to mill out all the framing stock, planking, timbering for the decks etc. a bandsaw set up for resawing, a thickness sander will be needed unless you buy a timbering set that has the heavy milling done or a kit with laser cut frames that all you have to do is assemble.

picking a US 74 gun ship like the Ohio or Pennsylvania would have no frame drawings and knowledge of drawing frames and a working knowledge of CAD and a year of drafting before you cut a single piece of wood.
 
This will definitely require more thought. I have a pretty complete miniature wood shop so don't think tools would be a problem. I have used most and am fairly comfortable even if it takes a few tries for some parts. The scroll saw upgrade from a worn out Proxxon was my last need.
While I am used to going in over my head on some projects, I do want/need complete templates and instructions. That's why I had initially chosen the Naiad. It would not have been and easy build but seemed to have all the documentation and templates I would need. And I expected that by now I would have developed enough scale to make sense of it. But I would hate to put all that work into the hull and not go any further because I didn't have the rest of the books.
So, I am guessing something like the Naiad with that level of instructions and the complete templates without having to hunt around for other material would work best. I would definitely post a build log; I would like all the help I could get.
I was 77 on my last birthday so not sure I have too many builds left in me. I wanted to go to the top of my list and pushed a little.
I appreciate everyone's help.
You folks are great.
Richard
 
Richard,

You can do this, especially if you do a build log and take advice from folks on the forum. I started a scratch Navy Board plank on frame (using he Harold Hahn) method 35years ago, with no internet or forums. Just a set of plans from Greenwich and a few reference books.

For tools I had a 10" circular saw, a thickness sander, an oscillating drum sander, and a micro table saw...plus an assortment of clamps, files, rasps, scrapers, etc.

I think you have three choices to make a quality built up, frame by frame ship.

1. Scratch, using a set of plans for the ship of your choice. Then search for reference material, drawings and build logs, to assist you. (longest and most difficult). You will encounter many challenges (carving, interpretation of drawings, milling/forming complex curves, etc).

2. Scratch, using one of the plans and sets of milled lumber, that Dave from Lumberyard mentions (Alfred or Hanock above are examples). This alleviates milling all the lumber to the correct thicknesses and ensures you have the plans and drawings needed (plus a jig to assist in alignment). Plus many build logs probably exist for these builds. You will still encounter the difficulties of carving, drawing interpretation and milling/forming complex curves, etc.
3. Semi-scratch from any of the many high-quality kits. Example links below:
CAF see link: https://cafmodel.com/collections/sailing-ship-371
and
ZHL see link: https://www.zhlmodel.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=75
or many others.
These kits can be customized extensively, and your result will look very much like a scratch build. But you won't have to do all the research, frame drawing, milling, jig construction, and carving of figureheads and stern decorations, etc. Many build logs also exist for these semi-custom kits.

Look closely at this beautiful kit with incredible carvings and imagine doing it yourself, from scratch!!!

Utrecht Pegasus Scale 1/50 18" Wood Carving pieces Wooden Model Ship Kit

www.zhlmodel.com www.zhlmodel.com

I probably will not do another fully scratch build, like my Serapis.

HMS Serapis - Scratch Build [COMPLETED BUILD]

First post on my build. I started in the 1980s, from plans bought from NMM in Greenwich. Kids stopped progress from late 80's, until recently. Being retired, I'm making good progress. i will dig through some photos to show recent progress. I have a unique "workshop". When COVID broke out...
shipsofscale.com

Instead, I will take advantage of these well thought out semi-custom kits and display them as proudly as I do my scratch build of Serapis.

Make a choice and go forward with confidence!

Brad
 
I too dove off the deep end of the pool and into scratch building. I decided on a smaller vessel (not smaller scale just a less intricate build) and joined the SOS group build for Le Rochefort. The Ancre plans along with Adrian Sorolla’s companion book are pretty complete. But the real jewel of this group build is the support and direction of the moderators and other members of the group. I’m pretty sure I would have given up in frustration were it not for the group. Take a look at the Group Build page and see for yourself. Good luck which ever path you choose.
 
One thought is to move into your scratch build with progressive learning...start with a quality POF kit to learn how a fully framed hull goes together with parts already made for you, that normally includes a building jig, and rather clear instructions on building the hull frame work. Then armed with that knowledge and experience jump into your scratch build project. Just a thought...
 
A lot of food for thought. I will keep thinking it through while I finish my current build (Albatross-Occre.) I think I will have to go through what I already have in publications and materials and continue to review framed kits. Thing is, before I retired, I already had collected much of the Box and Swiss pear wood and some of the plans I might need, and the cost ($400 +) of another kit is a bit of a deterrent. The plans, like those listed by Dave at the beginning of the thread just pulls at me.
I appreciate everyone's input. It helps to work these things out with others.
Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Richard
 
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