Stern Decorations - Hahn Drawings - Prototypes

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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why would romero label the figure as Pegasus and give it a fish tail? A pegasus is a winged horse
and romero has the critter facing the wrong direction the butt is at the edge and the face in inward he did the same thing on the other critter to the right, he faced it in the opposite direction of the drawing.

i would question romero putting the same carvings of the Alfred on the Warrior yes they were sister ships not twins.

this just goes to show every builder adds their personal touch to any ship model. What makes this interesting everyone is right because there is NO actual Alfred to use as a reference.

alfred stern b&w.jpg
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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oh a light bulb just lit up

the Alfred and Warrior are two different ships so the carvings would be different you can not use one as a reference for the other.

romero never drew a set of plans for the warrior he used Hahn's drawings of the Alfred and blew them up to 3/16 scale. what Romero did was take a set of plans and just changed the name of the ship.
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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1596379502503.png

look at what Romero is calling a Pegasus

this is what a Pegasus looks like

pegasus.jpg


this is not trying to figure out what the carvings are on the ship this is just totally wrong. did romero just make stuff up as he went along or perhaps he has no clue about mythological creatures.
 
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Also for HMS Warrior it seems that at least one other model builder (John Rose) has interpreted the carvings on the port side as a Hippocampus:
View attachment 169791
The hippocampus or hippocamp, also hippokampos (plural: hippocampi or hippocamps; Greek: ἱππόκαμπος, from ἵππος, "horse" and κάμπος, "sea monster"), often called a sea-horse in English, is a mythological creature shared by Phoenician, Etruscan, Pictish, Roman and Greek mythology, though its name has a Greek origin. Pegasus is a mythical winged divine horse, and one of the most recognized creatures in Greek mythology. Usually depicted as pure white, Pegasus is the offspring of the Olympian god Poseidon
When hearing the names Neptune or Poseidon, many people conjure up the same image, that of a sea or water god and the horses, and always with a trident.
 
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Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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way way back in the days of art school and hanging out with the art crowd i took a course in art and architecture. Buildings are steeped in beliefs spirits, mythology, creatures and their design was done to invoke awe and inspire. Some building will not even label the 13th floor

one can consider a ship of the line a floating cathedral it was built for war but within the structure you still find the spirit the mythologies and superstitions.

a Pegasus? i don't think so because it does not fit within the theme it was a winged horse which sprang from the neck of the beheaded Gorgon Medousa and It was tamed by Bellerophon who rode it into battle against the fire-breathing monster. He also tried to ride the Pegasus to heaven.

King Alfred was not a war monger he was all about the refinement of England a Pegasus was a war horse A hippocamp was a protector so which one would you think was on the stern of the ship Alfred?
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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oh a light bulb just lit up

the Alfred and Warrior are two different ships so the carvings would be different you can not use one as a reference for the other.

romero never drew a set of plans for the warrior he used Hahn's drawings of the Alfred and blew them up to 3/16 scale. what Romero did was take a set of plans and just changed the name of the ship.


in reply to myself these are 2 different ships with different carvings lets take a look at them both
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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look at the Alfred stern

orig1.jpg


now look at the Warrior


Plan of Warrior stern NMM 001.jpg


that answers the questions about the 2 ships looks like the side figures on the Alfred has scales of justice on the Warrior they are warriors.

on the Warrior it is a hippocamp on the left and a lion on the right

on the Alfred most likely a hippocamp on the left and to the right looks like a deer

the figures in the center are totally different on both ships

and yes the end critters are facing different directions on the 2 ships

i mashed it all together when i should have kept both ships separate
 
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Thanks Dave... as always you do great detective work.

Since this is my thread, please allow me to say a couple things.

1. The purpose of this thread was to share "fabrication techniques". If folks are interested in this topic, I will continue. If not, I will stop.
2. I am not building the HMS Alfred nor any other Hahn model. I am making these designs to fabricate difficult parts for other modelers. If someone wants to put an elephant on the back of their ship, I will do my best to create an elephant. It is their ship... I call this "BUILDER'S CHOICE".

So please, there is no reason to attack me or others just for doing this.

@Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) Your image of HMS Alfred in post #221 is the clearest one I have seen. What I thought was a fish tail seems to be the hair of the woman figure. I can clearly see a paw on the hind leg of the animal. It may indeed be a hound as Harold modeled it.

Lucky for SoS model builders I have already drawn it as both a hound and a hippocamp so model builders have a CHOICE in what they want. I was never forcing anything on anyone. My client and friend specifically asked for a hippocamp, so that was what I was attempting to give him.

Sail on.
 
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Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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clearly it looks like a hound or lion on the Alfred drawing and clearly a hippocamp on the Warrior drawing

either way is correct "builders choice"

have it your way

this is the very point argued by Harold Hahn himself and if i can find the letter in the archives i will post it.

The letter was a rebuttal over him being attacked for his artistic license and his interpretations. Harold was all for artistic freedom and the fact NOTHING can be proven either way unless the wreckage of the ship was found and studied.

everyone is right and everyone is wrong and a point in all directions is no point at all.
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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it is kind of funny how a debate about what a carving is a hound, lion or hippocamp taking a sharp left turn and becomes a debate on what any builders does to his personal model.
like i took a nap in the back seat and woke up to WHAT! where are we?

so it is not about what anyone does to their model we all know that what we are not sure of is what that critter is and who cares let there be all kinds of different Alfreds out there that way everything is covered for future debated.
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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Brian are you building an Alfred or a Warrior because they are 2 different sterns.

that's how i got confused you were making references to Romero's Warrior but calling your build the Alfred
 
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Dave and Mike. First let me thank you both for the time and effort that you are putting into this thread. It is always a great thing when 2 people of your obvious talents and knowledge are willing to share what they know so that we ALL can build better models, regardless of what that model may be. I have been following this thread with great interest since it started. However, there is something I feel I must get off my chest. All of the sniping by some elements have really started to put me off. Now I realize that there are very many shipbuilders out there who have a lot more experience than I do, after all I have only been building ship models, off and on, for over 40 years, but for any one of them to think that they have the only information that is correct about any ship is a slap in the face to many. I don't mean to hijack this thread, and I know that it has been said before, but it is time for all this childish bickering to stop. This is a place that is here for us to learn from one another's techniques so that we can be better. Ok - off my soap-box for now. Let's just keep it real.
 
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I would like to chime in here.
Mike is making the Alfred stern carvings for me following my instructions. He has no "horse in the race" so to speak about what decoration goes where, he is following my wishes.
I purchased the set of Reverend Romero's Warrior practicum 20 years ago, but after the revelations about Romero's fall from grace I decided to build Alfred.
 
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I would like to chime in here.
Mike is making the Alfred stern carvings for me following my instructions. He has no "horse in the race" so to speak about what decoration goes where, he is following my wishes.
I purchased the set of Reverend Romero's Warrior practicum 20 years ago, but after the revelations about Romero's fall from grace I decided to build Alfred.

.
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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i got my hands on a high resolution image of the stern drawing and blew it way up and colored the critter in question

there is a part i colored in to the right that now after looking at it i do not think it is part of the critter
like faces in the clouds what do you see?

lets all be civil here this is not about what anyone puts on their model it is us as a group looking at something and giving our "personal" opinion

i spy a tail and paws on a back leg and what looks like a lions mane


critter.jpg
 
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