the stern carronades

[tball4217]

Goodwin does admit the later ships did have carronades. But he fails to include drawings of what they looked like.

My question is how were the carronades actually situated on the ship. The platform is not appearing to be large enough to offer a genuine rotational arc on the slide bed due to the tiller

 

[AllanKP69]

What ship? The mountings varied quite a bit over time. Are you talking about carronades pointing aft on the quarter deck or broadside on this or some other deck? A simple sketch would really help. Tx T
Allan

 

[tball4217]

Goodwin admits in The Cutter Alert, that the little raised deck around the tiller head was used on LATER ships of the class/type to mount carronades as stern chasers.

Yet no diagram of how that was done is included. But he provides plans for both the size of the deck cannons.

Im trying to figure out what actual style of mount was used because the limited room due to the tiller.

 

[AllanKP69]

There are a number of pages with text descriptions and detailed drawings in Adrian Caruana's volume II of The History of English Sea Ordnance starting with the first pattern about 1780.

There are also at least two drawings showing carronades and carriages on the RMG collections website, of which one is dated 1779 that might help you as well.

How does the aft decking compare to the drawings at RMG of Kite, a cutter from a little later, 1795? Does it show the platform Goodwin describes?

Allan

 

[tball4217]

There are a number of pages with text descriptions and detailed drawings in Adrian Caruana's volume II of The History of English Sea Ordnance starting with the first pattern about 1780.

There are also at least two drawings showing carronades and carriages on the RMG collections website, of which one is dated 1779 that might help you as well.

How does the aft decking compare to the drawings at RMG of Kite, a cutter from a little later, 1795? Does it show the platform Goodwin describes?

Allan

over head deckplan doesnt, but side plan shows a very abrust raised section

 

[AllanKP69]

This is quite interesting and maybe a bit unusual. I just looked at a number additional plans, including deck and profile plans. The first not dated and has no stern ports. The next has stern ports but neither have raised platform that I can see. Ther third is similar but no raised platforms. The last has what may be housing around the rudder and a platform shown in dashed lines.
Allan


KIte 1795

​

A third drawing from circa July 1795 for Albatross Dispatch, Kite, Raven Star, Swallow Sylph and Pelican all 1795. There are small deck houses aft, perhaps heads, but no raised platforms.

There was the 1805 version of Kite that is a different design than the earlier Kite and Alert but has what may be the rudder housing and platforms Goodwin mentions on page 14 of the Alert book.

 

[tball4217]

but there is a distinction being missed, built for naval service, or purchased for naval service but built by a non military dock yard. That smugglers book when i looked through it other month made mention of distinct weight classes of cutter being used. The ones like alert in the 160 tons and up class, and smaller ones under i think 80 tons.. and just mounting swivels at best.

The goodwin book mentions carronades for the stern ports being standard for some/most of the alert class of cutter.. But only models that exist with mounted stern guns is photoed in the alert book and you can clearly see standard long guns in the stern ports.

 

[AllanKP69]

The goodwin book mentions carronades for the stern ports being standard for some/most of the alert class of cutter.

I looked at the AOTS book but cannot find this so far. It sounds like he would be contradicting himself based on what he writes on page 14 Records of the Alert do not indicate that she carried guns at this position, but some later vessels did carry two 12 pounder carronades. Then again when he writes about the armament on pages 15 and 16 he makes no mention of carronades at all.

A conundrum to be sure.

Allan

 

[tball4217]

an thats the issue

1. what style of carronade carraige
2. and why is the only known period model of a cutter armed with stern guns, photoed in the book, armed with normal cannon instead of carronades

And can anyone answer why the stern chaser would be double the projectile weight?

 

[AllanKP69]

1. what style of carronade carraige

For what year? There were the 1780, 1781, 1796, circa 1802, and 1808 patterns, at least. There were probably more variations.
Going along with Goodwin's comment, as Carronades came out the same year Alerte, which had been renamed and under French flag by then, foundered no pattern would be appropriate as she would not have had carronades.

2. and why is the only known period model of a cutter armed with stern guns, photoed in the book, armed with normal cannon instead of carronades

I doubt anyone knows why the model builder did that but maybe because that was the norm. If you want carronades on your model, go for it.

And can anyone answer why the stern chaser would be double the projectile weight?

Do you mean why double the shot weight of the broadside guns?

What may be interesting is that a twelve pounder Carronade weighed about 600-700 pounds. A twelve pounder 8.5 foot long gun weighed about 3,600 pounds.

Allan

 

[tball4217]

For what year? There were the 1780, 1781, 1796, circa 1802, and 1808 patterns, at least. There were probably more variations.
Going along with Goodwin's comment, as Carronades came out the same year Alerte, which had been renamed and under French flag by then, foundered no pattern would be appropriate as she would not have had carronades.

I doubt anyone knows why the model builder did that but maybe because that was the norm. If you want carronades on your model, go for it.


Do you mean why double the shot weight of the broadside guns?

What may be interesting is that a twelve pounder Carronade weighed about 600-700 pounds. A twelve pounder 8.5 foot long gun weighed about 3,600 pounds.

Allan

well the original load out for alert and the other 3 ships, was 4 pounders, tha went to 6... so why mount 12 pound carronades for the stern guns and not the side. I do know one of the ships was captured by the french and given 14 pound carronades for the broadside.

 

[AllanKP69]

T
The useful range on a Carronade was about 1/3 to 1/2 that of a long gun so might be why there would still have been long guns on these cutters. I imagine the task and appropriate tactics used by these cutters were two of the things considered in what type of armament would be mounted. That might be totally wrong, but I would love to learn more as to the whys.

I do know one of the ships was captured by the french

Probably not the Alert The French Navy captured Alert in 1779 before the RN put Carronades on cutters and the French did not begin incorporating Carronades until 1804, 25 years after Alert sank. There were several cutters captured by the French after the intro of Carronades in the French Navy including Carrier (1805), Decoy (1810), and Racer (1810). Which one (or some other) are you referring to? These histories of individual vessels can really be fascinating at times.

Just as an FYI the history of the use of Carronades in the French Navy can be found in Naval Artillery, French Navy 1650-1850 by Boudriot and Berti. There is a detailed review of the book here at SoS.

Allan