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Topgallant Futtock seizing question

I

icecreamviking

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Jul 19, 2023
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I've been looking high and low for answers about how the futtocks of the topgallant shrouds are typically seized to the topshrouds, preferably on French Vessels. For context I'm making a model of L'Hermione (I've posted here a few times asking for similar information). I've poured over about 100,000 photographs, unfortunately this is a rarely photographed piece of rigging. I understand about 90% of how this was done thanks to some photos and reference from Jean Boudriot's treatise on the rigging of French 74 gun ships...but the final detail eludes me. I know it's essentially secured by two thumbles joined by a cross seizing. however, by all accounts the bottom thimble, the attachment point at the lower end, is held in an eye splice and I cannot find anywhere by what means that piece of cordage is seized to the corresponding topshroud. I imagine that's becasue this is a well known, trivial detail. if anybody has any insights into this, I'd be very appreciative.

there are 2 pictures attached for clarification. the first in greyscale is my current work. the second is a screenshot taken from a video made by one of the topmen explaining the lashing that holds tension on the cordage (in French). this was an extremely lucky find, however, my best view of the attachment of the bottom thimble to the shroud is still a pixelated mess. framed in yellow is my best guess at what I'm seeing, essentially an inverted eye splice, but this is not described anywhere in any book I can find. If anyone can make out the photograph more clearly, I'd love some insight! here is the link to the video it was taken from
(this entire channel is a goldmine)

image.png

guesswork.PNG
 
Last edited:
Interesting question, i'd also be grateful for an answer if anyone knows.
In French monographs, it's pinned with shroud to upper futtock staves. But on HMS Surprise, for example, the pin is actually attached directly to mast.

HMSSurprise.jpg
Le Francois.pngasd.png
LCDM.png
 
icecreamviking said:
I've been looking high and low for answers about how the futtocks of the topgallant shrouds are typically seized to the topshrouds, preferably on French Vessels. For context I'm making a model of L'Hermione (I've posted here a few times asking for similar information). I've poured over about 100,000 photographs, unfortunately this is a rarely photographed piece of rigging. I understand about 90% of how this was done thanks to some photos and reference from Jean Boudriot's treatise on the rigging of French 74 gun ships...but the final detail eludes me. I know it's essentially secured by two thumbles joined by a cross seizing. however, by all accounts the bottom thimble, the attachment point at the lower end, is held in an eye splice and I cannot find anywhere by what means that piece of cordage is seized to the corresponding topshroud. I imagine that's becasue this is a well known, trivial detail. if anybody has any insights into this, I'd be very appreciative.

there are 2 pictures attached for clarification. the first in greyscale is my current work. the second is a screenshot taken from a video made by one of the topmen explaining the lashing that holds tension on the cordage (in French). this was an extremely lucky find, however, my best view of the attachment of the bottom thimble to the shroud is still a pixelated mess. framed in yellow is my best guess at what I'm seeing, essentially an inverted eye splice, but this is not described anywhere in any book I can find. If anyone can make out the photograph more clearly, I'd love some insight! here is the link to the video it was taken from
(this entire channel is a goldmine)

View attachment 552935

View attachment 552987
Click to expand...
This is an excellent question that appears to have received over 200 responses, as for myself I am currently building the Danish Norskelove 1764 at 1:72 scale, most of my rigging and Ratlines are complete. I agree there is generally very little information to be found, including decent closeup photographs for reference. Unfortunately Billings plans dated around 1970 are useless. The information posted here is too late for me, but for my next model HMS Diana, I will surely use some of the information posted here. thanks for your question, cheers Richard.
 
to follow up on this, my original guess was very close. I stumbled upon a much clearer view in a video from the channel I linked. the bottom thimble is spliced above the thimble, and tightened around it with what looks like a round seizing. this creates a bight which threads around the shroud and itself. it may seem at first that there's nothing to keep this loop from sliding freely up the shroud, but indicated with a red line you'll see the topgallant futtock stave is square-lashed to the shrouds directly above and it would arrest any upward movement 1762223992442.png
 
icecreamviking said:
I've been looking high and low for answers about how the futtocks of the topgallant shrouds are typically seized to the topshrouds, preferably on French Vessels. For context I'm making a model of L'Hermione (I've posted here a few times asking for similar information). I've poured over about 100,000 photographs, unfortunately this is a rarely photographed piece of rigging. I understand about 90% of how this was done thanks to some photos and reference from Jean Boudriot's treatise on the rigging of French 74 gun ships...but the final detail eludes me. I know it's essentially secured by two thumbles joined by a cross seizing. however, by all accounts the bottom thimble, the attachment point at the lower end, is held in an eye splice and I cannot find anywhere by what means that piece of cordage is seized to the corresponding topshroud. I imagine that's becasue this is a well known, trivial detail. if anybody has any insights into this, I'd be very appreciative.

there are 2 pictures attached for clarification. the first in greyscale is my current work. the second is a screenshot taken from a video made by one of the topmen explaining the lashing that holds tension on the cordage (in French). this was an extremely lucky find, however, my best view of the attachment of the bottom thimble to the shroud is still a pixelated mess. framed in yellow is my best guess at what I'm seeing, essentially an inverted eye splice, but this is not described anywhere in any book I can find. If anyone can make out the photograph more clearly, I'd love some insight! here is the link to the video it was taken from
(this entire channel is a goldmine)

View attachment 552935

View attachment 552987
Click to expand...
Great
 
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