Vasa - 1:65 DeAgostini [COMPLETED BUILD]

dockattner said:
A small update today that represents hours and hours and hours of work.

I've mentioned several times that I have been making rope while working on other tasks. In studying other build logs I've noticed that some builders choose to make rope on an as-needed basis (well, assuming they didn't just use the kit-supplied rope or purchase rope on the aftermarket). I decided to pre-make rope in various sizes ahead of time so I would be locked and loaded when the need arose.

There is probably not a right or wrong way to approach this, though my solution did require a great deal of research on the front end to determine what sizes of rope would be needed for my build (thus far I have largely limited myself to the standing rigging). There are several tables and spreadsheets available to assist the builder though they sometimes don't agree (though I suspect much of that is user error on my part). In addition, I needed to estimate the lengths I would need of each size. Of course there is no way I got all this right...

Here is what I have done so far:

View attachment 274378

I still need two more sizes and will also need more of several of the sizes that I have started (the 0.36 for example). A man can only take so much rope-making at a time...

Here are some closer looks at several of the sizes:

View attachment 274374

View attachment 274375

View attachment 274376

View attachment 274377

As you can see I have selected polyester source threads. For anyone interested, most of these began as Gutermann Skala 240 or Guterman E121 (though some are from Gutermann Mara 120, 70, or 30).

Before you panic, while almost everything you see is intended for standing rigging, nothing has been tinted yet. I will be tinting on an as-needed basis because many of these sizes will show up in the running rigging as well (untinted). There is also material for ratlines in what has been produced and that will remain hemp colored for this build.

You may have also noticed that everything you see here is right handed (hawser laid). I am well aware that some builders think all the standing rigging should be left handed - others think it should be right handed. Others believe only the largest ropes from the standing rig should be left handed with the smaller ropes being right handed. I have even read that port and starboard sides should use different handed-ness on the shrouds. Unless something changes in my thinking everything will be right handed on this model (well, the anchor rope will be cable laid). Don't hate me.

Poly vs cotton vs silk vs... is open to debate and the preferences of the individual builder. I chose poly because it produces cleaner (less fuzzy) rope - perhaps too clean for some of you though if you have been following this build for long you know I wasn't going to be OK with fuzzy rope.

Poly has one major reported downside that I will need to sort out - it is marginally stretchy - the thicker ropes more so than the thinner ones (that's not a scientific conclusion - just my personal stretch test...). The other thing poly does is unravel when it is cut. Care must be taken to 'burn' the ends or use CA or some other binder before cutting the ropes.

And when I say it unravels I mean it unravels with enthusiasm - almost violently. I intend to use CA but I was still worried that I would lose control of some of the ends. My solution (not my invention) was to bake all the ropes in the oven (350 degrees Fahrenheit for 5 minutes or so). This helps a lot.

In the image below the rope on the right is uncooked. All I did is cut it with an XActo and it fell apart in the blink of an eye. The rope on the left was baked and cut with the same knife.

View attachment 274373

I learned (the painful lesson) that you can't just throw loose rope into the oven and bake it because the rope will take the 'pattern' of however it is sitting in the oven. My remedy was to wrap the rope around a soup can and then bake it.

View attachment 274372

I'm still a ways off from doing any rigging - but it is now on the visible horizon so rope-making will continue in the weeks ahead.

Thank you for checking in on my build. The simple fact that you visit now and again is more encouraging than I can put words to.

Oh, and thank you to @Daniel20 and @mati.n who offered helpful advice (along with several others). It takes a village...
Click to expand...
Hi Paul your rope looks great very inspiring, I am thinking of making rope for my current model. I have made a rope walk but have never used it, now's a good time to fire it up and see how it works. How do you work out how much weight to use, what is the effect of too much/not enough tension on the rope your making.
 
dockattner said:
A small update today that represents hours and hours and hours of work.

I've mentioned several times that I have been making rope while working on other tasks. In studying other build logs I've noticed that some builders choose to make rope on an as-needed basis (well, assuming they didn't just use the kit-supplied rope or purchase rope on the aftermarket). I decided to pre-make rope in various sizes ahead of time so I would be locked and loaded when the need arose.

There is probably not a right or wrong way to approach this, though my solution did require a great deal of research on the front end to determine what sizes of rope would be needed for my build (thus far I have largely limited myself to the standing rigging). There are several tables and spreadsheets available to assist the builder though they sometimes don't agree (though I suspect much of that is user error on my part). In addition, I needed to estimate the lengths I would need of each size. Of course there is no way I got all this right...

Here is what I have done so far:

View attachment 274378

I still need two more sizes and will also need more of several of the sizes that I have started (the 0.36 for example). A man can only take so much rope-making at a time...

Here are some closer looks at several of the sizes:

View attachment 274374

View attachment 274375

View attachment 274376

View attachment 274377

As you can see I have selected polyester source threads. For anyone interested, most of these began as Gutermann Skala 240 or Guterman E121 (though some are from Gutermann Mara 120, 70, or 30).

Before you panic, while almost everything you see is intended for standing rigging, nothing has been tinted yet. I will be tinting on an as-needed basis because many of these sizes will show up in the running rigging as well (untinted). There is also material for ratlines in what has been produced and that will remain hemp colored for this build.

You may have also noticed that everything you see here is right handed (hawser laid). I am well aware that some builders think all the standing rigging should be left handed - others think it should be right handed. Others believe only the largest ropes from the standing rig should be left handed with the smaller ropes being right handed. I have even read that port and starboard sides should use different handed-ness on the shrouds. Unless something changes in my thinking everything will be right handed on this model (well, the anchor rope will be cable laid). Don't hate me.

Poly vs cotton vs silk vs... is open to debate and the preferences of the individual builder. I chose poly because it produces cleaner (less fuzzy) rope - perhaps too clean for some of you though if you have been following this build for long you know I wasn't going to be OK with fuzzy rope.

Poly has one major reported downside that I will need to sort out - it is marginally stretchy - the thicker ropes more so than the thinner ones (that's not a scientific conclusion - just my personal stretch test...). The other thing poly does is unravel when it is cut. Care must be taken to 'burn' the ends or use CA or some other binder before cutting the ropes.

And when I say it unravels I mean it unravels with enthusiasm - almost violently. I intend to use CA but I was still worried that I would lose control of some of the ends. My solution (not my invention) was to bake all the ropes in the oven (350 degrees Fahrenheit for 5 minutes or so). This helps a lot.

In the image below the rope on the right is uncooked. All I did is cut it with an XActo and it fell apart in the blink of an eye. The rope on the left was baked and cut with the same knife.

View attachment 274373

I learned (the painful lesson) that you can't just throw loose rope into the oven and bake it because the rope will take the 'pattern' of however it is sitting in the oven. My remedy was to wrap the rope around a soup can and then bake it.

View attachment 274372

I'm still a ways off from doing any rigging - but it is now on the visible horizon so rope-making will continue in the weeks ahead.

Thank you for checking in on my build. The simple fact that you visit now and again is more encouraging than I can put words to.

Oh, and thank you to @Daniel20 and @mati.n who offered helpful advice (along with several others). It takes a village...
Click to expand...
That is beautiful looking rope! When the current project is done I'll be attempting rope making. Are you using a custom built rope walk or a purchased one?
 
Kurt Konrath said:
Doc, what rope making machine did you use to produce the fine ropes you displayed.
Click to expand...
STGCS said:
That is beautiful looking rope! When the current project is done I'll be attempting rope making. Are you using a custom built rope walk or a purchased one?
Click to expand...
Tony H said:
Hi Paul your rope looks great very inspiring, I am thinking of making rope for my current model. I have made a rope walk but have never used it, now's a good time to fire it up and see how it works. How do you work out how much weight to use, what is the effect of too much/not enough tension on the rope your making.
Click to expand...
Gentlemen,

Thank you for your interest in my rope-making. I'll try to answer this cluster of questions in a single post.

I have two rope making machines and I used both of them to make these ropes. Both are from Domanoff - one is a planetary machine and the other is a vertical rope walk (can be turned into a horizontal rope walk).

The planetary machine is fast and can make virtually unlimited lengths of rope. Problem: since my source threads were right handed the planetary machine only makes left handed ropes (technically it can make right handed ropes but you need left handed source threads for that). BUT, then I can use these left handed ropes from the planetary machine as the source threads for making right handed ropes. I did this on the vertical rope walk. It is simply a matter of experimenting with different size threads (and thread counts) to make up different size ropes. Oodles of time was wasted making bad ropes at the Kattner shipyard...

The vertical ropewalk also can unspin the right handed source threads and then keep spinning them into right handed rope. This is essential to make the thinner ropes. Skala 240 will make 0.21-0.22 mm diameter rope.

Now, to answer your question Tony. The planetary machine does not use weights but the traditional ropewalks do (of course). I am far from an expert but I have found that the thinner ropes turn out better with lighter weights and the thicker ropes turn out better with heavier weights. I also think (again - rookie offering advice warning) that the thicker ropes turned out best with about a 10% 'lift' of the weight before it is released and thinner ropes turned out best with about a 15% 'lift' (that will make more sense once you start experimenting yourself).

I welcome comments from more experienced rope makers.
 
PeterG said:
Paul, what a huge venture. Probably unless you make your own rope, people do not appreciate how long it takes, even with a top quality planetary rope walk.

My experience is limited to a 2 metre vertical, weighted ropewalk and while this works OK and produces good rope, a second one I have built is horizontal and can be up to 5 metres for each winding. Obviously the faster the ropewalk spins, the faster you will make rope, but beware, when running at speed, overturning and tension buildup can result in breakages, poor quality and catastrophe. My 5m ropewalk takes about 15 minutes per length.

Also in my experience most ‘off the shelf’ threads such as Gutterman are left handed and so to produce the preferred right handed rope means it has to be wound backwards (to unwind the left handed winding) then rewound to be right handed. This takes longer and the tension applied becomes important.

I have found the CA application at cut ends the best way to stop it unraveling but it is always a nuisance as you never know where, in a length, you want to cut, until it is sized for length and applied. This therefore tends to waste a lot of made rope, and so you always need more than you think you do. As I progress through my Vasa, and I have now finished my standing rigging, I am amazed at how much rope is required - it is many, many metres.

Colour too, is a variable thing. I have chosen a wide range of colours but tend to come back to four or five ‘standard’ colours, with a darker colour preference for standing rigging and lighter colours for running rigging.

Size too is highly variable on a ship. There are spreadsheet guidelines but in general there seems to be a preference by many modellers to use rope thicknesses too great and out of scale for their models. To get this right takes time and a study of a number of sources, but it is worth the effort. Making a list for the many ropes and their sizes is a good start, and you will be surprised how many different sizes are required. Then as you produce lengths, categorise and label them. I store all my rope hanging vertically off a nail in a length of suspended wood. This tends to keep the rope straight although it will tend to twist around itself. Applying tension before hanging relieves a lot of the twisting and works better than storing on a reel or winding endless loops.

To estimate rope size, using multiple rope turns around a dowel then measuring the width of the winding and estimating the circumference I have found is the most accurate method, but use a lot of turns (30-40 is best).

Great work Paul, but I suspect the challenge is just beginning!!

Regards

PeterG
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Hi Peter,

Thank you for this thoughtful post. It is helpful to me and I'm sure for many others. Yes, the true challenge remains...
 
Very good work and results with your ropes -
btw: I would also order from you........ very good quality
 
Hi Paul, One area of rope sizing I have not spent any time with yet is will my dead eyes, 3,4,5, and 7mm blocks accommodate the ropes I want to use?
Will the scale of block and rope match? Do the scale of block and rope need to match? For me I suspect a subjective does it 'look' good or not will rule the day.
 
Paul ropes are masterful - For tarred rigging could you not have just gone to a black or very dark brown (Stockholm tar)? You could have for-all-intent-and-purposes limited your work to two widths - pre-dyed - lower and upper shrouds - just a thought. Thinking that over time staining may dull a bit more that you would want.
 
Daniel20 said:
Hi Paul, One area of rope sizing I have not spent any time with yet is will my dead eyes, 3,4,5, and 7mm blocks accommodate the ropes I want to use?
Will the scale of block and rope match? Do the scale of block and rope need to match? For me I suspect a subjective does it 'look' good or not will rule the day.
Click to expand...
Good thoughts Daniel. Each aspect of the build is a surprise to me so I will join you in wondering how this will all work/turn out.
 
oldflyer said:
Paul ropes are masterful - For tarred rigging could you not have just gone to a black or very dark brown (Stockholm tar)? You could have for-all-intent-and-purposes limited your work to two widths - pre-dyed - lower and upper shrouds - just a thought. Thinking that over time staining may dull a bit more that you would want.
Click to expand...
Of course you could be right John. I have experimented with rope tinting but have no idea if my results will be color stable over time.

That said, I will not be shooting for 'tarred' ropes - at least not as dark as we see on most every other build. You may recall from the museum build forum that it is unlikely that the ropes (any ropes) were tarred on the Vasa (or maybe only tarred lightly during the manufacturing process by treating the source 'threads' that made up the ropes). Still, I really don't think keeping all ropes the same color is the way to go either. Aargh!

Oh, and if you were gently pointing out that I might be crazy - I won't dispute the point! ROTF
 
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dockattner said:
Gentlemen,

Thank you for your interest in my rope-making. I'll try to answer this cluster of questions in a single post.

I have two rope making machines and I used both of them to make these ropes. Both are from Domanoff - one is a planetary machine and the other is a vertical rope walk (can be turned into a horizontal rope walk).

The planetary machine is fast and can make virtually unlimited lengths of rope. Problem: since my source threads were right handed the planetary machine only makes left handed ropes (technically it can make right handed ropes but you need left handed source threads for that). BUT, then I can use these left handed ropes from the planetary machine as the source threads for making right handed ropes. I did this on the vertical rope walk. It is simply a matter of experimenting with different size threads (and thread counts) to make up different size ropes. Oodles of time was wasted making bad ropes at the Kattner shipyard...

The vertical ropewalk also can unspin the right handed source threads and then keep spinning them into right handed rope. This is essential to make the thinner ropes. Skala 240 will make 0.21-0.22 mm diameter rope.

Now, to answer your question Tony. The planetary machine does not use weights but the traditional ropewalks do (of course). I am far from an expert but I have found that the thinner ropes turn out better with lighter weights and the thicker ropes turn out better with heavier weights. I also think (again - rookie offering advice warning) that the thicker ropes turned out best with about a 10% 'lift' of the weight before it is released and thinner ropes turned out best with about a 15% 'lift' (that will make more sense once you start experimenting yourself).

I welcome comments from more experienced rope makers.
Click to expand...
Thanks Paul my project for next week will be to dig out the parts I made years ago, try to remember how it went together and have a go at rope making.
 
dockattner said:
Of course you could be right John. I have experimented with rope tinting but have no idea if my results will be color stable over time.

That said, I will not be shooting for 'tarred' ropes - at least not as dark as we see on most every other build. You may recall from the museum build forum that it is unlikely that the ropes (any ropes) were tarred on the Vasa (or maybe only tarred lightly during the manufacturing process by treating the source 'threads' that made up the ropes). Still, I really don't think keeping all ropes the same color is the way to go either. Aargh!

Oh, and if were gently pointing out that I might be crazy - I won't dispute the point! ROTF
Click to expand...
Far better to start with pre-tinted cord for making standing rigging than stained it afterward. Also, how do poly lines take a stain anyhow? You'd think any coloring would just rub off except for maybe the recesses in the line.
 
DARIVS ARCHITECTVS said:
Far better to start with pre-tinted cord for making standing rigging than stained it afterward. Also, how do poly lines take a stain anyhow? You'd think any coloring would just rub off except for maybe the recesses in the line.
Click to expand...
My tinting agent is petroleum based (bitumen of judea for decoupage). I cut it with terps or mineral spirits. Still experimenting. Maybe I'll show some samples if I can get that far this weekend (I need to make some tinted rope for futtock shrouds which I want to pre-rig while I have the tops in my hand and not on the ship).
 
dockattner said:
My tinting agent is petroleum based (bitumen of judea for decoupage). I cut it with terps or mineral spirits. Still experimenting. Maybe I'll show some samples if I can get that far this weekend (I need to make some tinted rope for futtock shrouds which I want to pre-rig while I have the tops in my hand and not on the ship).
Click to expand...
Hi, is that the same as tar?
 
dockattner said:
Gentlemen,

Thank you for your interest in my rope-making. I'll try to answer this cluster of questions in a single post.

I have two rope making machines and I used both of them to make these ropes. Both are from Domanoff - one is a planetary machine and the other is a vertical rope walk (can be turned into a horizontal rope walk).

The planetary machine is fast and can make virtually unlimited lengths of rope. Problem: since my source threads were right handed the planetary machine only makes left handed ropes (technically it can make right handed ropes but you need left handed source threads for that). BUT, then I can use these left handed ropes from the planetary machine as the source threads for making right handed ropes. I did this on the vertical rope walk. It is simply a matter of experimenting with different size threads (and thread counts) to make up different size ropes. Oodles of time was wasted making bad ropes at the Kattner shipyard...

The vertical ropewalk also can unspin the right handed source threads and then keep spinning them into right handed rope. This is essential to make the thinner ropes. Skala 240 will make 0.21-0.22 mm diameter rope.

Now, to answer your question Tony. The planetary machine does not use weights but the traditional ropewalks do (of course). I am far from an expert but I have found that the thinner ropes turn out better with lighter weights and the thicker ropes turn out better with heavier weights. I also think (again - rookie offering advice warning) that the thicker ropes turned out best with about a 10% 'lift' of the weight before it is released and thinner ropes turned out best with about a 15% 'lift' (that will make more sense once you start experimenting yourself).

I welcome comments from more experienced rope makers.
Click to expand...
It is unfortunate that the Domanoff machine doesn't have a way to adjust the tension of the feed ropes. At least, I don't think it does based on your comments. In the vertical ropewalk you use weights to adjust the tension of the feed ropes. Without tension pulleys on the Domanoff machine, I am not sure how it could work properly. Anyways, that is my 2 cents.
 
Jack Sparrow said:
It is unfortunate that the Domanoff machine doesn't have a way to adjust the tension of the feed ropes. At least, I don't think it does based on your comments. In the vertical ropewalk you use weights to adjust the tension of the feed ropes. Without tension pulleys on the Domanoff machine, I am not sure how it could work properly. Anyways, that is my 2 cents.
Click to expand...
Hello Captain Jack. I can't explain the technology behind a planetary rope making machine. I can affirm that it works extremely well for what it can do: make ropes from three single source threads (not multiples of 2, 3, 4 etc.). It produces high quality ropes very quickly and with a short learning curve. But if a builder wants to dial in rope sizes he/she would also need a traditional ropewalk. At least that is my experience.
 
dockattner said:
Hello Captain Jack. I can't explain the technology behind a planetary rope making machine. I can affirm that it works extremely well for what it can do: make ropes from three single source threads (not multiples of 2, 3, 4 etc.). It produces high quality ropes very quickly and with a short learning curve. But if a builder wants to dial in rope sizes he/she would also need a traditional ropewalk. At least that is my experience.
Click to expand...
Thanks @dockattner. I have pulled the trigger on my purchase. We'll see how it goes I guess.
 
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