Weathering Sails - Why?

[Richie]

Ok I have a question that has been on my mind for a while and prefacing this I guess there is no right or wrong answer.

Being quite new to this hobby I often see various techniques to give the sails a weathered look for your model, I understand why you would do this on a ship that has been created with a weathered hull and deck etc, but why would you do it on a model that is built with an as new look, it doesn't seem to make sense to me having old looking sails and the rest of the model new looking.

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Good question. I agree with you that the idealized (clean, undamaged, unworn) style model should have sails matching that condition. A model with weather worn wood, chipped paint, and oxidized bronze cannon or oxidized copper sheathing should have dirty brown, weather sails, assuming the original color was the cream of unpainted canvas. Coordinating the appearance of all parts of the model to a particular style prevents some feature becoming distracting because it appears out of place with the rest of the model. The clean, idealized, "like new" model appearance stretches the intent of the model more toward an art form, and away from the realism style. Both are very attractive. The appeal of one over the other is personal preference.

 

[PT-2]

Good question. I agree with you that the idealized (clean, undamaged, unworn) style model should have sails matching that condition. A model with weather worn wood, chipped paint, and oxidized bronze cannon or oxidized copper sheathing should have dirty brown, weather sails, assuming the original color was the cream of unpainted canvas. Coordinating the appearance of all parts of the model to a particular style prevents some feature becoming distracting because it appears out of place with the rest of the model. The clean, idealized, "like new" model appearance stretches the intent of the model more toward an art form, and away from the realism style. Both are very attractive. The appeal of one over the other is personal preference.

That to my mind is a very good summary of purpose and intent of the model in a comprehensive manner of presentation. Rich (PT-2)

 

[PT-2]

That to my mind is a very good summary of purpose and intent of the model in a comprehensive manner of presentation. Rich (PT-2)

As an added thought I think that scale is as imprortant to sails as to the other aspects of a model. For example if the edges are hemmed then the width and end thickness of the hem should be in scale with the size of the sail/model. Often we may see hemmed edges which are too wide for the scale; while it may be in milimeters the actual width may end up over a foot and you should ask if that is reasonable for what the full sized sail would be sewn with. Just a thought for consideration along with the aging and "bagging or sag" of a sail. As the builderit is in your hands and eyes as to what you want to present. Rich (PT-2)

 

[Richie]

Good question. I agree with you that the idealized (clean, undamaged, unworn) style model should have sails matching that condition. A model with weather worn wood, chipped paint, and oxidized bronze cannon or oxidized copper sheathing should have dirty brown, weather sails, assuming the original color was the cream of unpainted canvas. Coordinating the appearance of all parts of the model to a particular style prevents some feature becoming distracting because it appears out of place with the rest of the model. The clean, idealized, "like new" model appearance stretches the intent of the model more toward an art form, and away from the realism style. Both are very attractive. The appeal of one over the other is personal preference.

Thanks, yes agree weathered sails on a clean hull can still look good.

 

[Richie]

Another thought crossed my mind, I wonder how white the sail material was 200 years ago or 400 years ago even when new. I would guess a bright or pure white was not achievable back then, so staining the material on a model would make sense in that case.

 

[dockattner]

Another thought crossed my mind, I wonder how white the sail material was 200 years ago or 400 years ago even when new. I would guess a bright or pure white was not achievable back then, so staining the material on a model would make sense in that case.

That's what I was about to add. White cloth may not have been a thing like it is today. For example, if a ship's sails were made from hemp they should be 'hempy' in color... In that sense pure white sails would be out of place. Of course, realism need not always be our goal.

That said, for myself, consistency of style should prevail (weathered hull = weathered everything). And while I have the mic - consistency of SCALE should be elevated as a virtue as well...

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

This is about as white a new sail appears like, a cream color at the brightest, or a light tan. These were made with cream colored stretch satin fabric, and lightly stained with pine tar to bring out some of the cloth texture. Linen and cotton these days is beached white and sometimes contains phosphorous, which converts some invisible ultraviolet light into visible light, making the cloth appear even whiter.


The is a topsail from HMS Victory with battle damage from Trafalgar and aged an extra 216 years. I think you might actually find a clean spot here or there.

 

[Bob Ellis]

This is a much discussed question. Many representations are vastly over weathered. In reality a ship's sails would be different ages, some surviving a blow and others parting from the bolt ropes and being lost in storms or torn to shreds. These would be very quickly replaced by the ships sailmaker. So a full set of tea stained sails all of the same colour is extremely unrealistic. After a severe storm it was not uncommon for a full set of sails to be renewed and look clean and tidy.
With regard to the original colour a British sail was a slightly creamier white than an American due to a difference in fabric. However, either way, under the tropical sun at sea sails would often appear 'blindingly white'. I used to stain my sails but after a period of fading due to age and natural light they were displeasing to the eye. I no longer stain, I use a fine white lawn cotton which weathers with age anyway.
Model ship sails can make or break the convincing aspect of the build, I find the most displeasing to be the tea/coffee stained ruffled and sewn representations. It is impossible to scale the sewing no matter how skilled you are. I would only sew the bolt ropes where fine stitching can be hidden. I prefer Goerge Bandurek's method outlined in his book 'Super Detailing the Cutter Sherborne' (google!) using a very fine pen line 'scratched' lightly on the material. It's more effective than it sounds!!

 

[PT-2]

This is a much discussed question. Many representations are vastly over weathered. In reality a ship's sails would be different ages, some surviving a blow and others parting from the bolt ropes and being lost in storms or torn to shreds. These would be very quickly replaced by the ships sailmaker. So a full set of tea stained sails all of the same colour is extremely unrealistic. After a severe storm it was not uncommon for a full set of sails to be renewed and look clean and tidy.
With regard to the original colour a British sail was a slightly creamier white than an American due to a difference in fabric. However, either way, under the tropical sun at sea sails would often appear 'blindingly white'. I used to stain my sails but after a period of fading due to age and natural light they were displeasing to the eye. I no longer stain, I use a fine white lawn cotton which weathers with age anyway.
Model ship sails can make or break the convincing aspect of the build, I find the most displeasing to be the tea/coffee stained ruffled and sewn representations. It is impossible to scale the sewing no matter how skilled you are. I would only sew the bolt ropes where fine stitching can be hidden. I prefer Goerge Bandurek's method outlined in his book 'Super Detailing the Cutter Sherborne' (google!) using a very fine pen line 'scratched' lightly on the material. It's more effective than it sounds!!

Those sails, both furled and flying, look very good and well done along with the complex scale rigging. Rich (PT-2)

 

[Bob Ellis]

Those sails, both furled and flying, look very good and well done along with the complex scale rigging. Rich (PT-2)

Thank you Rich. I confess Pete Goodwin helped to research the rigging.

 

[Richie]

This is about as white a new sail appears like, a cream color at the brightest, or a light tan. These were made with cream colored stretch satin fabric, and lightly stained with pine tar to bring out some of the cloth texture. Linen and cotton these days is beached white and sometimes contains phosphorous, which converts some invisible ultraviolet light into visible light, making the cloth appear even whiter.
View attachment 268707

The is a topsail from HMS Victory with battle damage from Trafalgar and aged an extra 216 years. I think you might actually find a clean spot here or there.

The image of topsail from HMS Victory if fascinating, thank you, I will look locally to see if any suitable fabrics like mentioned above are available to use in place of the kit supplied one.

 

[Richie]

This is a much discussed question. Many representations are vastly over weathered. In reality a ship's sails would be different ages, some surviving a blow and others parting from the bolt ropes and being lost in storms or torn to shreds. These would be very quickly replaced by the ships sailmaker. So a full set of tea stained sails all of the same colour is extremely unrealistic. After a severe storm it was not uncommon for a full set of sails to be renewed and look clean and tidy.
With regard to the original colour a British sail was a slightly creamier white than an American due to a difference in fabric. However, either way, under the tropical sun at sea sails would often appear 'blindingly white'. I used to stain my sails but after a period of fading due to age and natural light they were displeasing to the eye. I no longer stain, I use a fine white lawn cotton which weathers with age anyway.
Model ship sails can make or break the convincing aspect of the build, I find the most displeasing to be the tea/coffee stained ruffled and sewn representations. It is impossible to scale the sewing no matter how skilled you are. I would only sew the bolt ropes where fine stitching can be hidden. I prefer Goerge Bandurek's method outlined in his book 'Super Detailing the Cutter Sherborne' (google!) using a very fine pen line 'scratched' lightly on the material. It's more effective than it sounds!!

View attachment 269217View attachment 269218

Great feedback thanks Bob.
I hadn't thought about individual sails being replaced that would appear different, I have some thinking to do for my first attempt at putting sails on my ship.

 

[Bob Ellis]

Great feedback thanks Bob.
I hadn't thought about individual sails being replaced that would appear different, I have some thinking to do for my first attempt at putting sails on my ship.

Iv'e spent over 20 years researching the days of sail. until last year Peter Goodwin live close by and we met in the local hostelry! He gave me the full set of Patrick O'Brian's series of novels, he said he hadn't the time to read them. I have to say that they are one of the best insights into maritime warfare and general history available wrapped up in good stories. O'Brian's research was meticulous. As well as museums and public records he draws from personal letters from seamen to families as well as official logs and communications. They give a vivid view of the Royal Navy of the time and what life was like aboard a navy ship. As for the accounts of battle I'm happy I wasn't born back then!! Read them.

 

[Richie]

Iv'e spent over 20 years researching the days of sail. until last year Peter Goodwin live close by and we met in the local hostelry! He gave me the full set of Patrick O'Brian's series of novels, he said he hadn't the time to read them. I have to say that they are one of the best insights into maritime warfare and general history available wrapped up in good stories. O'Brian's research was meticulous. As well as museums and public records he draws from personal letters from seamen to families as well as official logs and communications. They give a vivid view of the Royal Navy of the time and what life was like aboard a navy ship. As for the accounts of battle I'm happy I wasn't born back then!! Read them.

Great insight thank you, I was aware of Patrick O'Brian's books and looking them up I see there are 20 complete and 1 unfinished so you did well to get the set.
I have watched more historical documentaries and drama series in the last year or so than I ever have before, as well as reading several books so far and I will now add Patrick O'Brian's novels to my list.
You are right about being born back then, while I enjoy building the models and researching about the era I definitely would not want to be a sailor in those days, I am way too soft a person for those hardy souls.

 

[Bob Ellis]

Great insight thank you, I was aware of Patrick O'Brian's books and looking them up I see there are 20 complete and 1 unfinished so you did well to get the set.
I have watched more historical documentaries and drama series in the last year or so than I ever have before, as well as reading several books so far and I will now add Patrick O'Brian's novels to my list.
You are right about being born back then, while I enjoy building the models and researching about the era I definitely would not want to be a sailor in those days, I am way too soft a person for those hardy souls.

We're not that sort of calibre nowadays!

 

[Masters Mate]

This is a much discussed question. Many representations are vastly over weathered. In reality a ship's sails would be different ages, some surviving a blow and others parting from the bolt ropes and being lost in storms or torn to shreds. These would be very quickly replaced by the ships sailmaker. So a full set of tea stained sails all of the same colour is extremely unrealistic. After a severe storm it was not uncommon for a full set of sails to be renewed and look clean and tidy.
With regard to the original colour a British sail was a slightly creamier white than an American due to a difference in fabric. However, either way, under the tropical sun at sea sails would often appear 'blindingly white'. I used to stain my sails but after a period of fading due to age and natural light they were displeasing to the eye. I no longer stain, I use a fine white lawn cotton which weathers with age anyway.
Model ship sails can make or break the convincing aspect of the build, I find the most displeasing to be the tea/coffee stained ruffled and sewn representations. It is impossible to scale the sewing no matter how skilled you are. I would only sew the bolt ropes where fine stitching can be hidden. I prefer Goerge Bandurek's method outlined in his book 'Super Detailing the Cutter Sherborne' (google!) using a very fine pen line 'scratched' lightly on the material. It's more effective than it sounds!!

View attachment 269217View attachment 269218

Bob, I agree about stark white sails in the tropics. In 1768, Captain Carteret (& Lieutenant Gower) in HMS Swallow described the "rigging and sails bleached white" after more than two years at sea.

 

[Bob Ellis]

Bob, I agree about stark white sails in the tropics. In 1768, Captain Carteret (& Lieutenant Gower) in HMS Swallow described the "rigging and sails bleached white" after more than two years at sea.

Interesting. It's surprising that the sails had survived for that long. More relevant to us as scale builders is whether this will alter the perception of realism. The usual question is 'how do we stain' answered by a cascade of techniques, instead of 'should we'! We see so many seriously accomplished builds marred (to my eye) by the over use of a soaking in stain.

 

[Masters Mate]

Interesting. It's surprising that the sails had survived for that long. More relevant to us as scale builders is whether this will alter the perception of realism. The usual question is 'how do we stain' answered by a cascade of techniques, instead of 'should we'! We see so many seriously accomplished builds marred (to my eye) by the over use of a soaking in stain.

I'm going with bleached but blotchy sails on Medea, representing in the diorama that the ship had been at sea and at war for over two years without docking. New sails would have been provided as needed but the diorama will be near the end of a four month voyage time wise.

Unfortunately progress is slow and I'm not working on sails and rigging just yet.

 

[PT-2]

I'm going with bleached but blotchy sails on Medea, representing in the diorama that the ship had been at sea and at war for over two years without docking. New sails would have been provided as needed but the diorama will be near the end of a four month voyage time wise.

Unfortunately progress is slow and I'm not working on sails and rigging just yet.

You may reconsider as back then as well as now, the captain made the crew repaint everything and bent on perfectly clean if not new sails to impress the owners upon their ship's condition thus promoting a future voyage.
Just a thought for your consideration of merchant vessels as well as naval. A good reading novel upon this is Dana's Two Years Before the Mast in the closing chapters. Rich (PT-2)