Xebec Le Requin real size?

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Bluestone28

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i have a question about the real Xebec Le Requin size,
I just found, in a junk store, an old modelkit of The REQUIN Xebec,

The model kit is about 65cm long (including the (broken) Beaupré)
and i wonder what could be the exact scale of this modelkit as i must redo (thanks to 3d printing!) some broken or missing parts.
so i found different size on the web for different scales, so if someone has found the right Lengh (max) and Width,
thanks!

IMG_7329.JPG
 
it's quite complex, as most of the time, it is written in French feet (so a conversion to "normal" feet values and after, to metric )
and there are different modelkits with different scale and most of the time it is written only the model sizes and not the real one.
i got very different results !
for some, total Lenght is about 37m and some other, lot more than that! (around 60m)
so i'm a bit lost... ;)
 
Check these links:

Monographie

boutique.aamm.fr boutique.aamm.fr
and
ancre.fr

LE REQUIN - Xebec - 1750 - Ancre

This monograph on the xebec LE REQUIN is based on documentation that gives us a complete picture of this ship. including all plans of the timber works in 1/48.
ancre.fr ancre.fr

A French foot at the time = 324.8 mm
It is always a good idea to acquire documentation to accompany the model for the purpose of presentation.
G
 
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to visualise the problem i've got :
- source
scale written, Length, Width > realsize calculated

https://www.modelships.de/Schebecke-Le-Requin/Le-Requin_eng.htm
Scale 1:48, L = 126cm, Width =23cm > soooo realsize Length must be 1.26*48 > 60,48m

Sailing ship model Le Requin, a French Chebec of 1751

www.modelships.de www.modelships.de
Scale 1:52, L = 111cm, Width =28cm > realsize Length must be 1.11*52 > 57.72m... well

Chebec Le Requin 1751 1:48

The history of the Chebec Le Requin In 1749 a proposal was made by the commander of the Toulon dockyard to build four chebecs as an effective protection against the Barbary pirates. The corsairs primarily relied on fast and agile chebecs, while the frigates and sloops-of-war of the French navy...
shipsofscale.com
Scale 1:48 L = 124cm, Width =26cm > realsize Length must be 1.24*48 > 59.52m...

modélisme en polynésie

Bateaux à vapeur, bateaux statiques, outillage-maison ... un passionné de modélisme vous livre ses trucs, ses astuces, ses innovations.
www.modelismeenpolynesie.com
Scale 1:40 L = 144cm, Width =24cm > realsize Length must be 1.44*40 > 57.6m...

Oeuvre : Précisions - Maquette de bateau, Chébec de 24 canons, 1750 Requin, chébec de 24 canons, 1750 | Les collections du musée | Musée national de la Marine

Notice d'oeuvre ''Maquette de bateau, Chébec de 24 canons, 1750 Requin, chébec de 24 canons, 1750'' du musée ''Les collections du musée | Musée national de la Marine''
mnm.webmuseo.com mnm.webmuseo.com
Scale 1:24 L = 212cm, Width =40.5cm > realsize Length must be 2.12*24 > 50.88m...

Scale 1:48, L = 126cm, Width =25cm > realsize Length must be 1.26*48 > 60,48m (but here the width is different...)

the first idea is to find my model scale as it's around 65cm Long....
so for now my calculate scale is... around 1:90?

i know that modelkits are not completly precise science but here maybe is also that Length is maybe not the overall Length all the time,
i still don't understand the width differences btw... ;)

so if someone can help...
thanks,
 
Why attempt to calculate real size from existing kits?
The 2 documents from the links I provide you are likely the source info for the kits that include information usually complemented by somewhat of an artistic license.
Kits will in most cases provide you with overall size.

If you go to the second link I provide, scroll down the page and click on "model size", it will give you the information at 1:48.

Go to the source!
I would say your scale is either 1:96 or 1:100 but do not take my word for it.

G
 
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yes thanks a lot,
i saw this model size at 1:48 (it's my 3rd line of my example, surelly the most acurate one)

but i wanted to have the real size of this ship, to calcultate my modelkit scale.
if the Length of the 1:48 one is 1.24m (model rigged),
for my kit with a 65cm long, it mean that more or less my scale is 1.24/0.65 * 48 right? so 1:91.. 1:92 ?
 
it's an old (don't know exactly but surelly more than 30 years old, maybe 50...) so scale and accuracy... it's seem that
it's a modelkit not a model made from scratch so maybe i can find the manufacturer?
 
all of these with in mind the possibility of adding crew... but for that i must know the scale... more and less ;)
 
Bluestone28 said:
it's an old (don't know exactly but surelly more than 30 years old, maybe 50...) so scale and accuracy... it's seem that
it's a modelkit not a model made from scratch so maybe i can find the manufacturer?
Click to expand...

So now you say that it may be a kit...
Looking at the model shown in the original photo, it does not really look like a kit. My observation would be based on the appearance of the lumber used, the scale of blocks, the way the guns look, etc..... the details and overall quality of the model seems good. better than an old kit.
Are the decorations at the stern and elsewhere wood or metal?
Anyways...
I go back to my main point... go to the source to get most of the information you need.

Taken from the Requin 1750 from the ANCRE Monograph:
Length = 114' 2"
Breadth = 25' 2"
Depth of hold 8' 9"
24 x 8-pounders
Crew of 220

Dimension in French feet: 1' = 0.324m
Length between perpendiculars
Breadth to inside of plank at the midship bend. Translated as: at the master beam, not including the planking.

PS: a difference of 0.2 to 0.4 in the scale is not going to make much of a difference for the average viewer. But your additions or rebuilt parts need to match the quality seemingly present the rest of the model.
G.
 
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thanks a lot for these detail !

yes i think it's a kit cause cannons and small guns are in yellow brass, too regular to be made from scratch, anchors are on metal, pulley (sorry i don't know the exact term in english) are a fine wood work (quite small)...
The model seem effectively accurate apart the canot (only 4 oars by side and normally it's 9 if i'm right)
and the engraved decoration (quite poor and some parts missing like the Lions and the bow figure...

maybe it's not so old, but it has lot of sticky old dust everywhere, so it's hard to say...
 
btw 114' you mean 114 French feet? more and less is 37m right? seem not to fit the other modelkit Lengh (60m more and less)
 
Bluestone28 said:
btw 114' you mean 114 French feet? more and less is 37m right? seem not to fit the other modelkit Lengh (60m more and less)
Click to expand...

Ah!
Êtes-vous familier avec le term "longueur entre perpendiculaires"?
Are familiar with the term (length between perpendiculars"?
G
 
To make it easier....
The difference in length is due to having one dimension representing the overall length of the hull: from one end to the other.
The shorter dimension (length between perpendiculars) only accounts for the distance between the stem (étrave) and the sternpost (étambot) not including the gripe (taille mer). This is the dimension given in the detailed monograph from ANCRE.
The dimension of the model (also listed in the info page from ANCRE) is the overall dimension of the hull.

G
 
so what i understood is that the Length is not always the overall global size?

ok so for me it was easier to mesure my model from one extremity to another (at last for the Length and width)
the difficulty is to understand if the Length written is the overall or between perpendicular. (and it's not always indicated)
 
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Bluestone28 said:
1) so what i understood is that the Length is not always the overall global size?

2) ok so for me it was easier to mesure my model from one extremity to another (at last for the Length and width)
the difficulty is to understand if the Length written is the overall or between perpendicular. (and it's not always indicated)
Click to expand...

1) The length indicated on kit packaging, instructions, and in advertising a set of plans for scratch builder, is indicated as an overall length for the model.
It is the dimension shown in the sites you and I listed.

2) the shorter dimension I indicated in my later post is the length included in the original ship data, and is the dimension that was the base for building the original ship. It is also the dimension that is included in the data helping the scratch builder, if that data is from original sources at scale 1:1.

In a side note: I have shared that measurement as it is part of the original ship specification. In this case, since you are trying to convert the dimension of your model into a scale, It should also help you narrow down the size difference your are encountering with your scale conversion.
If the distance between perpendiculars is 104 French feet (or 37+ m), there is no way the overall length of the hull itself is 60 m.
Looking at the front of the built model, you can see that the extra part (the gripe or Taille mer) is not 23m long.
The 104 feet dimension proves that the overall length of the hull at 1:1 is about 44 m

The real size of the ship being about 44m in length would match the 1:92+- scale or 65cm, the size of your model.

Again, when working on a model, whether it is restauration, building a kit or from scratch, the documentation with serious and original data is a good investment. It helps in the work to be done and is a worthy piece in one's education.
G.
 
ok understood and thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge, i use to paint things (tiny 15mm minis) for wargames area
and this ship is my first one since maybe more than 30 years! ;)

so i still don't understand the values given by my different examples above at their scale... all are more and less around 60m (after convertion)
so what could be my calculation error?

btw about the 1:92 how you obtain this value ?

taking 4400 divided by 65 is 67.7 more and less so a scale of 1:68 no?
 
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ah and i mesure the lengh of the 8 pound cannon :
it is about 2.85cm and if i remember these cannon Lenght is normally 2m right?
so scale calculation is 1:70 quite near of my other calculation above...
 
Bluestone28 said:
ah and i mesure the lengh of the 8 pound cannon :
it is about 2.85cm and if i remember these cannon Lenght is normally 2m right?
so scale calculation is 1:70 quite near of my other calculation above...
Click to expand...
Only to have in mind, that you also do not know, if the bun barrel was produced in the correct scale or correct original length
en.wikipedia.org

8-pounder long gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

If the original modeler used some aftermarket products he used maybe any available barrels for his guns...... I think, that the length of the guns can not be a proof to calculate the scale. There are too much imponderables - it is only an evidence
 
yes you right about the cannon....
it look like a bit fat comparing the picture of wiki...

and about the calculation, 1:92 how you obtain this value ?
thx.

Eric
 
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