Couple of questions relating to HMS Victory

[Vince Williams]

Hi, I'm part way through (Yes yet another one!) scratch built HMS Victory as she was originally launched (Plan to do a build log soon as 3.5 years so far and counting).

I'm using the usual trench of reference books as others and studied others build logs, I've got some cut out sections in the hull on one side so you can see the internal details and the intention is to use the same materials, joint locations etc as the original ship was (accepting that grain size issues etc are an issue).

I'm currently building the hold details and the Orlop deck structure and started some of the Orlop planking so before I get ahead of myself too far I'm hoping some of =you kind folk out there may be able to assist in clearing up some issues I'm encountering.

The ships inventory states something like 10,000 shot were stored for the cannons (I'm vague as I think it related to weight rather than quantity), there are around 500 shot stored for immediate use around the firing decks and there is a single shot locker in the hold, which I'd be surprised if it was just dropped in shot rather than stored on shelving but that aside, I'd guess around another 500 shot stored in there, so where were the other 9000 cannon balls stored as I can't find any info in books or online?

My other questions relate to the deck planking - the books state the lower decks planks were originally of pine due to a shortage of Oak, but is vague so would that have been all the lower (ie not exposed to the elements) decks or just the Orlop deck given the movement of the cannons would surely have caused wear in pine planking?
Also if the planking was pine and the frames beneath of oak would the trenails have been pine/ oak or some other material (I've been making own 'dowels' and drilling / gluing rather than using lead pencil for the hull planking for trenails- was a lot of work but worth the effort and plan to continue same for the deck planking ?

And finally I see there are metal fixings to the side of the knees, I'm guessing these were added at a later date or were they fitted at the first launch of the ship.

Appreciate any assistance on these question someone can provide.

Vince Williams

 

[Uwek]

One info related to the shot locker
As I know, there was the main shot locker close to the main mast - and because of the heavy weight it was every time around the main mast - also the Victory - I guess you know this contemporary drawing

Victory (1765) | Royal Museums Greenwich

www.rmg.co.uk

The size of the shot lockers were defined by the scantlings for this size of the ship


Did you start already to calculate the necessary volume for the 9000 shots? - or did you calculate the number of shot fitting in the shot locker?

Your 10.000 balls in total is looking correct, I know about the avarage of 80 to 100 balls per gun.

 

[Uwek]

Related to the treenails - as I know, the treenails were every time made out of the same wood like the planking

 

[Vince Williams]

One info related to the shot locker
As I know, there was the main shot locker close to the main mast - and because of the heavy weight it was every time around the main mast - also the Victory - I guess you know this contemporary drawing

View attachment 437963

Victory (1765) | Royal Museums Greenwich

www.rmg.co.uk

The size of the shot lockers were defined by the scantlings for this size of the ship
View attachment 437962

Did you start already to calculate the necessary volume for the 9000 shots? - or did you calculate the number of shot fitting in the shot locker?

Your 10.000 balls in total is looking correct, I know about the avarage of 80 to 100 balls per gun.

Thank you for speedy response - I just estimated 500 based on the dwgs and size of the shot locker (I'm a Civil Engineer so it comes with the territory) but am sure its way short of the other 9000/9500 allowing for the numbers I previously counted dotted around the rest of the ship. I've seen dwgs of other ships with a shot locker each side of the main mast but even if that was the case I'm left scratching my head where the rest would be stored (and why store some in a locker and rest loose stored?) - would assume they'd need to secure these from rolling around but still easy to get to and move given their weight, I thought originally it could be they used these as as some sort of ballast and stored on/in the gravel in the hold as this would stop them rolling if partially imbedded - the question is not unique to Victory but all wooden ships of any period I'd think

 

[Vince Williams]

Related to the treenails - as I know, the treenails were every time made out of the same wood like the planking

Thank you for speedy response, that was my guess as well so a huge relief as I've been thinning down bamboo skewers (as they're a little bit tougher than pine so turn better on the lathe) - currently I'm just using sandpaper to reduce them down to circa 1.3mm dia and that looks to me proportionally right against the 6mm wide planks I'm using (at 1:50 scale that makes them the 300mm wide that is suggested they were typically). The slight difference in grain etc makes them noticeable against the pine planking without being too different, will look good I think when I oil everything.

 

[Corsair]

If there was only one shot locker, it would need to have internal partitions because there were a handful of different size guns which of course use different size shot. You wouldn't want to mix them all together. Unfortunately, I don't have my reference book here as I have loaned it out to a friend building a Victory.

Jeff

 

[Uwek]

If there was only one shot locker, it would need to have internal partitions because there were a handful of different size guns which of course use different size shot. You wouldn't want to mix them all together. Unfortunately, I don't have my reference book here as I have loaned it out to a friend building a Victory.

Jeff

There were walls between the boxes in order to separate the different sizes. Take a look at @Signet Bonhomme Richard section building log, where you can see the shot locker

Signet's Bonhomme Richard Cross Section [COMPLETED BUILD]

Very good progress - you are a very fast modeler and it is looking very very good btw: I like your way of partly planking the outer hull, so we can see the structire of the frames behind very good It is getting a very good model - Bravo! Thanks very much, Uwe. I tried to do the outer planking...

shipsofscale.com

 

[badras-khan]

Hello ,
Here are some photos made on board of Victory in 2019
Hope to be of some help
Daniel

 

[badras-khan]

MMore of this

 

[Bob Ellis]

Hi, I'm part way through (Yes yet another one!) scratch built HMS Victory as she was originally launched (Plan to do a build log soon as 3.5 years so far and counting).

I'm using the usual trench of reference books as others and studied others build logs, I've got some cut out sections in the hull on one side so you can see the internal details and the intention is to use the same materials, joint locations etc as the original ship was (accepting that grain size issues etc are an issue).

I'm currently building the hold details and the Orlop deck structure and started some of the Orlop planking so before I get ahead of myself too far I'm hoping some of =you kind folk out there may be able to assist in clearing up some issues I'm encountering.

The ships inventory states something like 10,000 shot were stored for the cannons (I'm vague as I think it related to weight rather than quantity), there are around 500 shot stored for immediate use around the firing decks and there is a single shot locker in the hold, which I'd be surprised if it was just dropped in shot rather than stored on shelving but that aside, I'd guess around another 500 shot stored in there, so where were the other 9000 cannon balls stored as I can't find any info in books or online?

My other questions relate to the deck planking - the books state the lower decks planks were originally of pine due to a shortage of Oak, but is vague so would that have been all the lower (ie not exposed to the elements) decks or just the Orlop deck given the movement of the cannons would surely have caused wear in pine planking?
Also if the planking was pine and the frames beneath of oak would the trenails have been pine/ oak or some other material (I've been making own 'dowels' and drilling / gluing rather than using lead pencil for the hull planking for trenails- was a lot of work but worth the effort and plan to continue same for the deck planking ?

And finally I see there are metal fixings to the side of the knees, I'm guessing these were added at a later date or were they fitted at the first launch of the ship.

Appreciate any assistance on these question someone can provide.

Vince Williams

The orlop knees were braced with Roberts iron plate knees for additional strength. Similarly in the decks above which would have braces of various designs depending on the size of the timbers. These were standard additions to ships of the period and would be present at launch. Goodwin-'The Sailing Man of War 1655-1850'

 

[Stuart Little]

I guess that's where the expression:- 'A load of balls', came from.

 

[Alan Smith]

I have an answer (about trenails pronounced 'trennels' like kennels in the UK at least) not properly 'treenails' though it is obviously the derivation of the name. I am not an authority on shipbuilding, but lectured at university on matters related to the wood trades for many years.
Trenails were mass-produced from offcuts of oak =or sometimes Elm -trees felled for timber. In the pre-machine age felling and pit-sawing trees into usable lumber was hugely labour intensive and very little was wasted. Offcuts straight-grained enough for making trenails were cross-cut into suitable lengths and seasoned for a couple of years before being split (not sawn) from the bulk with axes, adzes, hammers (Mauls) and wedges. Splitting meant the trenails always followed the grain, whereas sawing might make cross-grained ones which would be weaker, it was also quicker. Generally the bulk timber was seasoned for at least 3 years and the cut trenails for at least one more. Making trenails was one of the jobs saved for days when the weather was too bad for forestry.

I have a question too. Were all the decks of HMS Victory cambered? It is hard for me to tell from the photographs.

 

[kaper]

Добрый день.
Сразу прошу прощения за мой английский.

У меня тоже есть вопрос. Были ли все палубы HMS Victory изогнутыми? По фотографиям мне трудно сказать.

Определенно!

Вот пост моего коллеги-судомоделиста с сайта «Верфь на столе» (...https://www.shipmodeling.ru/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6162):

"Любая палуба ВСЕГДА имеет изгиб палубы и седловатость палубы ( отвесность палубы ), за исключением площадок в трюмах. Существует общее правило: чем выше расположение палубы, тем больше изгиб палубы .
Разница в прогибе между деками довольно небольшая, но она есть. В качестве примера приведем разрезы Виктори из «Анатомии». Может быть, пригодится..."

 

[Alan Smith]

@Privateer. Thank you very much - I thought that camber was pretty much on every deck, but as you say it is fairly gentle. That is the impression I gt from looking at the pictures.

 

[Uwek]

Hi, I'm part way through (Yes yet another one!) scratch built HMS Victory as she was originally launched (Plan to do a build log soon as 3.5 years so far and counting).

I'm using the usual trench of reference books as others and studied others build logs, I've got some cut out sections in the hull on one side so you can see the internal details and the intention is to use the same materials, joint locations etc as the original ship was (accepting that grain size issues etc are an issue).

I'm currently building the hold details and the Orlop deck structure and started some of the Orlop planking so before I get ahead of myself too far I'm hoping some of =you kind folk out there may be able to assist in clearing up some issues I'm encountering.

The ships inventory states something like 10,000 shot were stored for the cannons (I'm vague as I think it related to weight rather than quantity), there are around 500 shot stored for immediate use around the firing decks and there is a single shot locker in the hold, which I'd be surprised if it was just dropped in shot rather than stored on shelving but that aside, I'd guess around another 500 shot stored in there, so where were the other 9000 cannon balls stored as I can't find any info in books or online?

My other questions relate to the deck planking - the books state the lower decks planks were originally of pine due to a shortage of Oak, but is vague so would that have been all the lower (ie not exposed to the elements) decks or just the Orlop deck given the movement of the cannons would surely have caused wear in pine planking?
Also if the planking was pine and the frames beneath of oak would the trenails have been pine/ oak or some other material (I've been making own 'dowels' and drilling / gluing rather than using lead pencil for the hull planking for trenails- was a lot of work but worth the effort and plan to continue same for the deck planking ?

And finally I see there are metal fixings to the side of the knees, I'm guessing these were added at a later date or were they fitted at the first launch of the ship.

Appreciate any assistance on these question someone can provide.

Vince Williams

I found another interesting conversation in @Jeronimo building log with explanations and drawings of the shot locker of the french 74 gun ship

74 GunShip 1/36 by Jeronimo [COMPLETED BUILD]

Alles Gute zum Geburtstag an einen Freund Birthday-Cake

shipsofscale.com

 

[Vince Williams]

I found another interesting conversation in @Jeronimo building log with explanations and drawings of the shot locker of the french 74 gun ship

74 GunShip 1/36 by Jeronimo [COMPLETED BUILD]

Alles Gute zum Geburtstag an einen Freund Birthday-Cake

shipsofscale.com

Hi, some interesting conversations here regarding this so thanks to all who have responded to date.
So the type of shot locker you show on the french model is much larger (almost a room intself) which if the one shown in books for Victory is correct then man entry isn't an option with only access covers (which at current height won't even flip open all the way) at the top meaning near impossible to remove the heavy cannon balls. This leads me to a number of thoughts:
1. The current locker on the dwgs is a later Victorian fancy and nothing like the original would be.
2. The shot locker could have been just for musket shot?
3. The shot locker itself sits and interfers with the removable grating above
4. Impossible for someone ot remove a cannon ball easily

So I've now obtained circa 9000 (I already have the other 1000) steel ball bearings in scale with the model and in various sizes / quantities based on my estimate of likely no's and as you can clearly see its a lot of shot to find stowage for (even if the shot locker worked ergonomically is far short of capacity). ps: I plan to chemically darken them so will look more like cast iron when done...

My current thinking from a handling perspective in a battle situation is that these need to be easily accessible and fast to get out of the hold and to the cannons (given 100 cannons would very quickly use up the ones on deck. With that in mind I'm concluding that the shot would have sat in the main hold areas loose or in small open trays (I saw a photo somewhere I think of French wooden carriers of 3 shots), forward of the main mast is the largest area so that is obviously where the large provisions barrels are located and I think given the aft side of the enclosure around the central mast area is much smaller and getting the large barrels out through the removable grating above this area diffciult / impossible would lend itself perfectly to storing the shot, be it loosly piled in the gravel ballast or in easy 3 tray boxes stacked. Alternatively these could be stored each side of the enclosure around the main mast. These could easily be lifted through the removable grating on the wooden storage pallet or in canvas slings - appreciate this is a controversial statement but as a Civil Engineer of long standing I consider the operational aspect of the design and whilst safety wasn't a real consideration when launched they would be considering speed.

Before I commit to this solutiuon would be good to get thoughts of others please

 

[Corsair]

Hi, some interesting conversations here regarding this so thanks to all who have responded to date.
So the type of shot locker you show on the french model is much larger (almost a room intself) which if the one shown in books for Victory is correct then man entry isn't an option with only access covers (which at current height won't even flip open all the way) at the top meaning near impossible to remove the heavy cannon balls. This leads me to a number of thoughts:
1. The current locker on the dwgs is a later Victorian fancy and nothing like the original would be.
2. The shot locker could have been just for musket shot?
3. The shot locker itself sits and interfers with the removable grating above
4. Impossible for someone ot remove a cannon ball easily

So I've now obtained circa 9000 (I already have the other 1000) steel ball bearings in scale with the model and in various sizes / quantities based on my estimate of likely no's and as you can clearly see its a lot of shot to find stowage for (even if the shot locker worked ergonomically is far short of capacity). ps: I plan to chemically darken them so will look more like cast iron when done...

My current thinking from a handling perspective in a battle situation is that these need to be easily accessible and fast to get out of the hold and to the cannons (given 100 cannons would very quickly use up the ones on deck. With that in mind I'm concluding that the shot would have sat in the main hold areas loose or in small open trays (I saw a photo somewhere I think of French wooden carriers of 3 shots), forward of the main mast is the largest area so that is obviously where the large provisions barrels are located and I think given the aft side of the enclosure around the central mast area is much smaller and getting the large barrels out through the removable grating above this area diffciult / impossible would lend itself perfectly to storing the shot, be it loosly piled in the gravel ballast or in easy 3 tray boxes stacked. Alternatively these could be stored each side of the enclosure around the main mast. These could easily be lifted through the removable grating on the wooden storage pallet or in canvas slings - appreciate this is a controversial statement but as a Civil Engineer of long standing I consider the operational aspect of the design and whilst safety wasn't a real consideration when launched they would be considering speed.

Before I commit to this solutiuon would be good to get thoughts of others please

View attachment 451318

View attachment 451319

View attachment 451320

Keep in mind that the shot locker was not the only place cannon balls were stored. There was also some shot stored at each gun location, either on a brass monkey, or on a piece of lumber with holes cut in it. If the brass monkey was a 4x4, they would stack 30 rounds in a pyramid shape at each location. If that is a 74 gun ship, that would be 2100 shot by itself (assuming there was a brass monkey at each gun location and none were shared between two guns). And you haven't even started to consider the powder.

Jeff

 

[Vince Williams]

Thanks for speedy reply Jeff. There are approx 500 shots total stored near each cannon location (I counted them!) so I'd guess enough for 10-12 shots apiece. I've seen pictures of the pyrmaid stack unit you mention but I'm thinking they would only have been used when battle was expected to commence so the cannon shot would still need to be stored prior to then. In terms of the powder I'm OK with that - the grand magazine worked out give or take for the storage of the gunpoder barrels based on 90% filled and the sizes quoted on google (so approx 750 barrels with copper hoops made and installed already - took a while to do!), I put teh shelving as a divider across the filling room so that's a decent voilume of prefilled bags, and then I belieeive there is teh gunpowder room at thhe aft hold area as well as the hanging magazines on the Orlop deck area so that's plenty I believe, leaving me still considering where all that shot would actually have been stored and how.

 

[dafi]

Plan as build 1830
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79911.html ZAZ0120

These shot lockers there are conform with all other plans of three deckers of the whole period

Also as far as I know the iron reinforcements like in the knees also as in the stern area of the gunports are all much newer. Still in 1788 there were enourmous wooden riders installed for additional strength. http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79913.html ZAZ0122

XXXDAn

 

[Kurt Konrath]

Thank you for speedy response - I just estimated 500 based on the dwgs and size of the shot locker (I'm a Civil Engineer so it comes with the territory) but am sure its way short of the other 9000/9500 allowing for the numbers I previously counted dotted around the rest of the ship. I've seen dwgs of other ships with a shot locker each side of the main mast but even if that was the case I'm left scratching my head where the rest would be stored (and why store some in a locker and rest loose stored?) - would assume they'd need to secure these from rolling around but still easy to get to and move given their weight, I thought originally it could be they used these as as some sort of ballast and stored on/in the gravel in the hold as this would stop them rolling if partially imbedded - the question is not unique to Victory but all wooden ships of any period I'd think

So a question about ball storage and shot lockers, as the Victory had multiple sizes of cannons and cannonades, how were the different sizes of shot sorted when stored below deck away from the cannons they are intended for.