Couple of questions relating to HMS Victory

[Kurt Konrath]

Also a question on shot storage outside of the shot locker. How were all the shot up on deck in Brass Monkey's or in timer on rails or around the grating held there while the ship was tossing about in rough seas while underway. I am sure not all sea battles were on calm waters.

 

[dafi]

Why the shot lockers down there at this difficult to access place? To keep the center of center of gravity down

Do not forget, that in 40 years of service she needed her guns only 4 days. The rest of those years she needed to be a good sailor that could stand hurricanes like X-Mess 1811, that wrecked St George and Defence and that Victory only closely escaped.

XXXDAn

 

[Vince Williams]

Thanks again for ther responses. I missed the orignal section shows 2 shot lockers whereas the book plans only show the one on the aft side of the main mast.
I still believe these to be insuffieicent, based on their dimensions I estimate each locker coould only hold a maximum of 500 cannon balls each so with the 500 distributed around the decks the ship would have needed 20 of these lockers - Also given the access is limited from above only this would not have allowed the collapsable shelving nor access to all but the top layer - an alternate location could have been within the structure around the main mast but given the chain pumps etc not much room for any shelving in there.

I agree though that the shot would have been accounted for in ballast hence why I suspect it may have been stacked 2-4 deep in the main hold fore of the main mast with the food barrels at the aft of the main mast thus providing a balance to the ship and would have been pretty stable in rough weather. Yes the cannon were only used a few times but the ship was built for war so the preparations would have assumed this each time it sailed

 

[dafi]

"whereas the book plans only show the one" if this is AOTS, that is good for an overview but basically each item should be checked by contemporary sources as there are many simplifications, omissions, anachronisms and even mistakes in there. Not moaning as I love and treasure this book but it has to be considered, it is already some decades old and research has continued ever since.

Very rough estimate for the balls: each ball 10 cm, locker ground surface 4 m on 0,8 m means 320 balls each layer, 3,5 m high thus 35 layers makes 11,200 shots per locker, 2 lockers mean 22,400 shot at this count, even the shots are square and not triangular packed. Thank you for the interesting fact check you asked but I do believe it is plausible.

 

[dafi]

Also as an engineer you see the discrepancies in between what is our perception and the experience of about 300 years of sailors experience. If stacked on the bottom of the hold the barrels of food and water would have needed to be on top. Even more difficult to get to those balls.

We always get tricked by the empty and clear presentation of the museum in P. and most of the models. In real life, theses ships have been cramped with men, equipment and provisions, 850 people supplied for several months, and that is a bit to carry. So the system wich pig irons on the bottom, then shingle to hold the casks and the shot stacked in the center in this solid box made sense. Also not to forget that the barrels and shingle had to be shifted quite a lot to trimm the ship as provisions went down. A very complex system. Means if balls were stacked only front or back of the mainmast, once the provisions went down the balls would drag their side of the ship down whereas in a battle the side of provisions would sink that side.

Also the pump well is not a good place to store things as this is a crucial part for the floatability of the ship. No pumps, no fight. Already in peacetime, the well had to be easily accepted, in cases of leaks or storms to evacuate the incoming water. Means easy access to repair the pumps or even enough place to allow men with buckets in there in case of complete breakdown of the pumps. And in battle even more important. Just remember the amount of water in the hold after Trafalgar.

That means to judge the system we should know all the factors and we are tricked by missing facts, our todays knowledge and misunderstandings through wrong pictures in our minds. It is a great and intriguing puzzle to understand why things were done as they were, what the contributing factors were and how they interacted. We are only just scratching the surface of the knowledge and skills of the time.

XXXDAn

 

[Stuart Little]

Keep in mind that the shot locker was not the only place cannon balls were stored. There was also some shot stored at each gun location, either on a brass monkey, or on a piece of lumber with holes cut in it. If the brass monkey was a 4x4, they would stack 30 rounds in a pyramid shape at each location. If that is a 74 gun ship, that would be 2100 shot by itself (assuming there was a brass monkey at each gun location and none were shared between two guns). And you haven't even started to consider the powder.

The balls would stay on the 'brass monkey', unless the temperature dropped toooooo low!

 

[Vince Williams]

Hi
Thanks for the responses, debates are always good as they help to clarify issues and reach a more likely consensu.

As an engineer I like to draw these things out, so have scanned in the book, set it to scale and thus am able to draw the cannonballs at scale over these plans and sections.
From this (and not even allowing for shelving thickness) the maximum no of shot in the locker would be around 3400 (so in reality likely 3000 per locker).

Based on that estimate you would need 3 of these shot lockers and yes contemporary plans may simplify it to a single locker I can't see where else the remaining one could be located (obviously the second of the 3 is located on the foreward side of the main mast enclosure as per more historical plans).

My suggestion on the cannon ball's being 'loose' in the hold - I envisaged them being located in an area of their own (not surrounded by barrels (as you state difficult to get to) and yes they would have to move them round to trim the ship but no more work than moving the barrels, but if they were in plank cradles of 3 cannons each (with divets for them to sit in and rope lifts each end) they could be stacked more securely and be easier to move around, including winching them upwards.

As I said, my main issue with these shot lockers is how they get the cannon balls in and out (especially in the heat of a battle) given the restricted access (as you can see on the section I've shown in red the maximum open position of the hatches before they foul on the beams above - how would someone (even for the young 'powder monkeys') be able to get in, lift out a cannon ball and then be able to fold up the shelf to access the cannon balls below. The only alternative would be to have doors at the fronts but that would have reduced storage area to keep access clear, hence why I suspect this arrangement may not be correct for cannon-balls

 

[dafi]

First what was the diameter of your avarage shot in there? Then by your drawing I already count about 3700 with plenty of air in between. In reality the balls would be stacked in triangular pattern both horizontal and vertical. So I believe one would come close to the needed 5000 per locker (plus the ones in the shot garlands). Almost the factor 10 of your first estimate in #4 on dgws

Also do not take the measures of McKay. Use the ones Uwe gave for a 100 gun ship in #4. then pack the balls triangular and hopefully the missing 1300 balls will possibly appear

Also there is mentioned a middle partition, thus providing the separation between different diameter of shots. So you can include the different diameters of shot in your calculation.

Also the flap at the top is not as tight as you think. Here a picture I took severalyears ago. One has to climb down and get the balls up. Forget the stairs in front of it, that is for the tourists only, but can serve as scale.



Also we are not in fregate war when surprises happened, in the fleet actions there was usually enough time to prepare. Getting the bulkheads and other stuff down - or overboard - and the shot up, the shot still had to be derusted if nescessairy and was then stored lying on deck nearby the guns with netting or in racks. Several of these were found in the wrecks of St. George and Defense of 1811 in Thorsminde. Also one sees that the shot sits in quite deep, so little danger of falling out in waves but much more the difficulty how to grab it ...

After all was prepared for Trafalgar they had some hours still to wait for action while slowly approaching the ennemy fleet.

XXXDAn

 

[Vince Williams]

Thanks - make more sense - I redid the sketch using just the 100mm dia (so smaller 12 pounder 4.4" should have been 112mm) sizes and that comes to nearer 4300, but given the main armament was the 32 pounder they're 155mm (6.1") or the orginal 48 pounders then quantity would have been reduced somewhat.

Would there have been an access platform in front of the shot locker though given this would have further interfered with the opening above - the locker itself prevents the larger barrels fitting through the remaining gap as it is.

 

[dafi]

No plateform but plenty of barrels bedded in shingle that could serve as one

And the grating on top of the shot locker was not intended for barrels ?!?

XXXDAn

 

[Uwek]

Добрый день.
Сразу прошу прощения за мой английский.



Определенно!

Вот пост моего коллеги-судомоделиста с сайта «Верфь на столе» (...https://www.shipmodeling.ru/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6162):

"Любая палуба ВСЕГДА имеет изгиб палубы и седловатость палубы ( отвесность палубы ), за исключением площадок в трюмах. Существует общее правило: чем выше расположение палубы, тем больше изгиб палубы .
Разница в прогибе между деками довольно небольшая, но она есть. В качестве примера приведем разрезы Виктори из «Анатомии». Может быть, пригодится..."

Hallo @kaper
we wish you all the BEST and a HAPPY BIRTHDAY