The Mary Rose anti boarding net: Question

[trance]

Hi

I have the Mary Rose on my shelf which I'm going to start at some point, my long to do list Lol.
I Know their is little known about the about the full construction of the Mary Rose and 16th century ships in general, My caldercraft kit does not detail the netting but I would like to add it.
I cant seem to find a good reference to the placing, construction and how it was stowed of the anti boarding netting of this or any period. Was the netting in panels or did it spread from bow to stern direction, I did find a build on this forum on the Apostal Felipe which shows the netting on top of the frame work, stretched from bow to stern and rolled up to be stowed but I haven't seen a Mary rose build that have incorporated it, I'm also interested in the use of pavises, were they attached on the outside or removable from the inside as they were also use by archers etc.
I have attached a photo taken from my book Tudor War Ship Mary Rose from the anatomy of the ships range which clearly shows its underneath the frame work and its different to the caldercratft instructions so its baffling a bit, im only on my second wooden ship so still learning.
I know its alot of information to ask for but could anyone advise me or point in the right direction of some good referencing, good diagrams would help

Thanks

 

[AllanKP69]

Hi Trance
In the book Tudor War Ship Mary Rose, can you please post the source McElvogue lists regarding the use of anti boarding netting on the Mary Rose? The presence of boarding netting on the Mary Rose is a surprise but is really interesting as I cannot find any information based on contemporary sources regarding this netting before the very late 18th century. Prior to your post the only information I had seen was in The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War, page 251 by Brian Lavery. He describes both guard netting to protect from falling objects and boarding netting to protect against boarders in some detail based on information from the Public Records Office Admin dated 6 November 1795. He gives this date as the first written mention of the use of boarding netting and then to be used only on ships of 38 guns or smaller. This does not coincide with McElvogue's information on having this netting on the Mary Rose, nearly 300 years earlier thus my curiosity regarding his source. I have no idea which author has the correct information. Interestingly according to the description given by Lavery rope was only used for a few years as boarding axes came into use very quickly and negated their use. Chain was then used instead of rope to overcome the use of the axes. I wonder if some research of ships' inventory records would turn up boarding axes which would help confirm the time period when the boarding nets came into use.
Thanks
Allan

 

[-Waldemar-]

.​

Some data and period definitions relevant to the anti-boarding netting:

The Ledges are those small pieces of timber which come thwartships from the waist-trees to the roof-trees to bear up the nettings; and so if there be a grating over the half deck [they are called the same] (H. Mainwaring, The Seaman’s Dictionary, manuscript ca. 1600).

Nettings are those small ropes which are seized together with rope yarns In the form of a net with meshes, and are for the most part only used in the waist (yet I have seen Flemings have nettings over all, from the top of the forecastle over the poop) ; and are stretched upon the ledges, which are placed from the waist-trees to the roof-trees. In merchantmen it is chiefly used having a sail laid over it, for to shadow their men, and for a close fight ; but I think they are in an error, for it is most dangerous for firing, of small defence if men enter, being quickly cut down, and being once torn down (as it may easily with small grapples) it doth cloy all the waist. In a man-of-war it is good to have them for the pleasure and succour of the company [in foul weather or in extreme sunshine], but not to use them in fight (H. Mainwaring, The Seaman’s Dictionary, manuscript ca. 1600).

Roof-trees are those timbers which are made of light wood (as of masts sawn) that go from the half deck to the forecastle, and are to bear up the gratings and the ledges whereon the nettings lie. These are supported under with stanchions which rest upon the deck. Also if they have occasion to use any such piece over the half deck for nettings or sails, it is called a roof-tree (H. Mainwaring, The Seaman’s Dictionary, manuscript ca. 1600).

There is also the spar deck, which is uppermost betwixt the two masts, and is made very slight, with a netting or slight boards towards the sides of the ship, and a grating in the midst (H. Mainwaring, The Seaman’s Dictionary, manuscript ca. 1600).

Ponts volants (semi-permanent decks) – (on some ships) decks fixed in a makeshift manner; when the enemy is on them, they can be dropped into the sea with a pyrotechnic charge without damaging the ship, or make the enemy fall lower, in which case they will be fired upon from both ends of the ship and the castles (G. Fournier, Hydrographie, 1643).

Tuque – a type of quasi-deck (faux-pont), made of grating or straight beams to protect from the sun and rain. Because of its weight, it was completely banned on warships in the form of wooden construction and replaced by textile covers held on by ropes (French Ordinance of 1670).

Pont de cordage (rope deck) – braided ropes over midship for defence against boarding, allows firing and stabbing with half-pikes at attackers devoid of cover; method used only on merchant vessels, never prevents ship capture (H.-S. Vial du Clairbois, E.-N. Blondeau, Encyclopédie methodique. Marine, T. 3, 1787).

Boevenet – grid structure made of wood or ropes over midship to prevent boarding (N. Witsen, Scheepsbouw…, 1671).

Loos boevenet – a grating of wood or braided rope, laid on longitudinal supports and chains stretched for this purpose just before the battle itself (Dutch Admiralty Resolution of 1593).

Vinkenet – a net of ropes, above the ship, stretched between the foredeck and half-deck when the ship is under attack, for protection against boarding and objects thrown by the enemy, used especially in former times when it could cover the whole length of the ship from bow to stern (N. Witsen, Scheepsbouw…, 1671).


And a scan from the monograph Mary Rose. Your Noblest Shippe. Anatomy of a Tudor Warship, 2009:

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[-Waldemar-]

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And still a nice graphic featuring a ship from this period sporting anti-boarding netting, other than from Anthony Anthony's Roll of 1546. This one is from G. de Brouscon, Manuel de Pilotage, 1548:

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[AllanKP69]

Some data and period definitions relevant to the anti-boarding netting:

THANK YOU for posting this information. This is the kind of information I was hoping for as it is based on contemporary sources

In a man-of-war it is good to have them for the pleasure and succour of the company [in foul weather or in extreme sunshine], but not to use them in fight (H. Mainwaring, The Seaman’s Dictionary, manuscript ca. 1600).

This seems to indicate that the netting was to provide protection for the crew from the weather but it would not be used in combat where there would be boarders. Then there are the fragments that are shown and described as possibly being boarding netting material. That there was boarding nets is not conclusive one way or the other in my mind, but certainly a possibility.
.
Thanks again Waldemar, this is extremely interesting as it is something I do not recall ever seeing on a contemporary model.

Allan

 

[-Waldemar-]

.​

THANK YOU for posting this information. This is the kind of information I was hoping for as it is based on contemporary sources.

Your welcome. To be honest, I compiled this summary some time ago, for other purposes. Now all I had to do was to reach for it and just make a few minor adjustments. I am also struck by the apparent contradiction in these descriptions when it comes to the perceived functionality of these nettings.

.​

 

[Uwek]

Another time but maybe interesting for some

The painting was made in 1805

Cutting out the 'Curieux' at Martinique, 3 February 1804​

The French brig sloop ‘Curieux’ was fitted out at Martinique in order to attack British interests. As she was a threat to British West Indian commerce, the British Commodore Hood gave orders for her capture. Under the command of Lieutenant Robert Carthew Reynolds four boats with 60 seamen and 12 marines set out on a moonlit night from the British ship ‘Centaur’. This meant a 20-mile row to reach the ‘Curieux’ lying under the protection of the guns of Fort Edward. When Reynolds’s barge came in under the stern of the ‘Curieux’ he found that, providentially, a rope ladder hung down the side. He scaled it and cut a hole in the anti-boarding nets to enable his men to pour on board. Before she was taken the French lost nearly 40 killed and wounded. The British had nine wounded and Reynolds, who was one of them, subsequently died of his wounds. On the right side of the picture the ‘Curieux’ is shown just before her capture. Her anti-boarding netting is clearly visible. The sailors can be seen loosing her sails and cutting her cable, while the guns of Fort Edward are firing. A moon shines between her masts and in the left foreground another battery is in action. The painting is signed and dated ‘F. Sartoruis 1805’.

Cutting out the 'Curieux' at Martinique, 3 February 1804 | Royal Museums Greenwich

www.rmg.co.uk

British and American Gunboats in Action on Lake Borgne, 14 December 1814​

During the preparation for the attack on New Orleans during the Anglo-American War of 1812-14, one of the obstacles for the British to overcome was five American gunboats moored on Lake Borgne, a sea lake to the east. Since the waters were too shallow to permit men-of-war to get within range, the attack was made by boats of the fleet. This force consisted of 42 launches, each with a carronade mounted in the bow, and carrying 980 seamen and marines. The five American gunboats were commanded by Lieutenant Thomas Catesby Jones and manned by 182 men.

When Jones's vessel drifted on the current a hundred yards nearer to his attackers, his was the first to be in action. He was boarded by sailors from the barge of Commander Nicholas Lockyer, the British officer in charge of the attack. The Americans resisted fiercely and had the advantage of height and anti-boarding netting. Lockyer was wounded, his number-two killed and his barge suffered heavy loss. When a second took its place it was sunk but by sheer weight of numbers the British boats prevailed. They cut away the nettings and subsequently all the gunboats were taken. 41 Americans and 94 British were killed or wounded.

On the immediate left in the foreground a grass-covered bank is visible, and water has been portrayed beyond with splashes from small-arms fire. Beyond and across the picture a group of British boats have been portrayed from astern. One of them in the centre has been hit and sunk. They are closing on the five gunboats that are grouped across the picture beyond them, identifiable from their American flags and rigged anti-boarding nets. Jones's gunboat is just right of centre, in starboard-broadside view, and has been boarded by Lockyer's barge.

Thomas Hornbrook was the eldest son of Richards Lyde Hornbrook a Royal Marine officer based in Plymouth, and was a successful oil painter of local naval scenes there. He exhibited at the Royal Academy, London, in 1836 and again in 1844. He became Marine Painter to H.R.H. the Duchess of Kent and her daughter, the future Queen Victoria, in about 1833.

British and American Gunboats in Action on Lake Borgne, 14 December 1814 | Royal Museums Greenwich

www.rmg.co.uk

 

[trance]

.​

And still a nice graphic featuring a ship from this period sporting anti-boarding netting, other than from Anthony Anthony's Roll of 1546. This one is from G. de Brouscon, Manuel de Pilotage, 1548

.​

Some data and period definitions relevant to the anti-boarding netting:

The Ledges are those small pieces of timber which come thwartships from the waist-trees to the roof-trees to bear up the nettings; and so if there be a grating over the half deck [they are called the same] (H. Mainwaring, The Seaman’s Dictionary, manuscript ca. 1600).

Nettings are those small ropes which are seized together with rope yarns In the form of a net with meshes, and are for the most part only used in the waist (yet I have seen Flemings have nettings over all, from the top of the forecastle over the poop) ; and are stretched upon the ledges, which are placed from the waist-trees to the roof-trees. In merchantmen it is chiefly used having a sail laid over it, for to shadow their men, and for a close fight ; but I think they are in an error, for it is most dangerous for firing, of small defence if men enter, being quickly cut down, and being once torn down (as it may easily with small grapples) it doth cloy all the waist. In a man-of-war it is good to have them for the pleasure and succour of the company [in foul weather or in extreme sunshine], but not to use them in fight (H. Mainwaring, The Seaman’s Dictionary, manuscript ca. 1600).

Roof-trees are those timbers which are made of light wood (as of masts sawn) that go from the half deck to the forecastle, and are to bear up the gratings and the ledges whereon the nettings lie. These are supported under with stanchions which rest upon the deck. Also if they have occasion to use any such piece over the half deck for nettings or sails, it is called a roof-tree (H. Mainwaring, The Seaman’s Dictionary, manuscript ca. 1600).

There is also the spar deck, which is uppermost betwixt the two masts, and is made very slight, with a netting or slight boards towards the sides of the ship, and a grating in the midst (H. Mainwaring, The Seaman’s Dictionary, manuscript ca. 1600).

Ponts volants (semi-permanent decks) – (on some ships) decks fixed in a makeshift manner; when the enemy is on them, they can be dropped into the sea with a pyrotechnic charge without damaging the ship, or make the enemy fall lower, in which case they will be fired upon from both ends of the ship and the castles (G. Fournier, Hydrographie, 1643).

Tuque – a type of quasi-deck (faux-pont), made of grating or straight beams to protect from the sun and rain. Because of its weight, it was completely banned on warships in the form of wooden construction and replaced by textile covers held on by ropes (French Ordinance of 1670).

Pont de cordage (rope deck) – braided ropes over midship for defence against boarding, allows firing and stabbing with half-pikes at attackers devoid of cover; method used only on merchant vessels, never prevents ship capture (H.-S. Vial du Clairbois, E.-N. Blondeau, Encyclopédie methodique. Marine, T. 3, 1787).

Boevenet – grid structure made of wood or ropes over midship to prevent boarding (N. Witsen, Scheepsbouw…, 1671).

Loos boevenet – a grating of wood or braided rope, laid on longitudinal supports and chains stretched for this purpose just before the battle itself (Dutch Admiralty Resolution of 1593).

Vinkenet – a net of ropes, above the ship, stretched between the foredeck and half-deck when the ship is under attack, for protection against boarding and objects thrown by the enemy, used especially in former times when it could cover the whole length of the ship from bow to stern (N. Witsen, Scheepsbouw…, 1671).


And a scan from the monograph Mary Rose. Your Noblest Shippe. Anatomy of a Tudor Warship, 2009:

View attachment 460673​

.​

.​

Your welcome. To be honest, I compiled this summary some time ago, for other purposes. Now all I had to do was to reach for it and just make a few minor adjustments. I am also struck by the apparent contradiction in these descriptions when it comes to the perceived functionality of these nettings.

.​

 

[trance]

Thankyou again for posting this, its really helpful and interesting, The Mary Rose noblest Ship is going on my book list to buy it seems more accurate. I'm yet to decide to incorporate the netting it won't be for a while as I have The revenge on my work station at the moment and I have the occre Mississippi and Prinz Eugen to do also to do so plenty to keep me busy. I looked at the instructions for the Mary Rose, its going to be interesting, only on my second boat, still got alot to learn.

 

[Graham]

I am currently building the Mary Rose and also referring to Your Noblest Shippe - the build log is ongoing on this site. The anti-boarding netting is shown on the Anthony Roll illustration -



As you can see, all decks have the anti-boarding netting. However, now I have rigged my build it would be impossible to add netting to any deck other than the main deck which has no rigging tie-offs. The rigging lines would have to pass through the netting making it an impossible task to tie them off if the netting is fitted first.
I may add the netting over the main deck and think that ran over a beam spanning the two bulkheads. If I do I will probably tie the netting myself as readily available materials either have hexagonal holes or just do not look right. I am still mulling it over.
Regards.

 

[trance]

I am currently building the Mary Rose and also referring to Your Noblest Shippe - the build log is ongoing on this site. The anti-boarding netting is shown on the Anthony Roll illustration -

View attachment 460801

As you can see, all decks have the anti-boarding netting. However, now I have rigged my build it would be impossible to add netting to any deck other than the main deck which has no rigging tie-offs. The rigging lines would have to pass through the netting making it an impossible task to tie them off if the netting is fitted first.
I may add the netting over the main deck and think that ran over a beam spanning the two bulkheads. If I do I will probably tie the netting myself as readily available materials either have hexagonal holes or just do not look right. I am still mulling it over.
Regards.

 

[Augustus]

Ran across this in my Great Harry folder.

 

[Spars]

Hi

I have the Mary Rose on my shelf which I'm going to start at some point, my long to do list Lol.
I Know their is little known about the about the full construction of the Mary Rose and 16th century ships in general, My caldercraft kit does not detail the netting but I would like to add it.
I cant seem to find a good reference to the placing, construction and how it was stowed of the anti boarding netting of this or any period. Was the netting in panels or did it spread from bow to stern direction, I did find a build on this forum on the Apostal Felipe which shows the netting on top of the frame work, stretched from bow to stern and rolled up to be stowed but I haven't seen a Mary rose build that have incorporated it, I'm also interested in the use of pavises, were they attached on the outside or removable from the inside as they were also use by archers etc.
I have attached a photo taken from my book Tudor War Ship Mary Rose from the anatomy of the ships range which clearly shows its underneath the frame work and its different to the caldercratft instructions so its baffling a bit, im only on my second wooden ship so still learning.
I know its alot of information to ask for but could anyone advise me or point in the right direction of some good referencing, good diagrams would help

Thanks

View attachment 460621

I think if cargo netting was in the original plans the detail would be added. I could be wrong.

 

[Uwek]

I think if cargo netting was in the original plans the detail would be added. I could be wrong.

The problem is, that the Mary Rose is so old, that there are no original or contemporary drawings existing - in these times the shipwrights worked without drawings

 

[lacucina]

I ran across this you tube video from Jamestown and they specifically talk about anti boarding netting and the Mary Rose. You might be interested in viewing.

 

[Spars]

I ran across this you tube video from Jamestown and they specifically talk about anti boarding netting and the Mary Rose. You might be interested in viewing.

THANX for this info.

 

[danielsje]

I think that in part our perceptions of historical accessories is looking for permanent fixtures on all ships of type and era. When in reality many fixtures, including deck furniture and rigging are discretionary to the whims of ship Masters and yard Masters. Anti-Boarding rigging is a discretionary fixture. Placed when the Ship’s Master feels the need…or not. I am not surprised that consistent historical reference is hard to find. How does this translate to the model…since boarding netting is discretionary to the ship’s Master it is also discretionary to the modeler. Your choice as to how and where to add it…

 

[Spars]

I think that in part our perceptions of historical accessories is looking for permanent fixtures on all ships of type and era. When in reality many fixtures, including deck furniture and rigging are discretionary to the whims of ship Masters and yard Masters. Anti-Boarding rigging is a discretionary fixture. Placed when the Ship’s Master feels the need…or not. I am not surprised that consistent historical reference is hard to find. How does this translate to the model…since boarding netting is discretionary to the ship’s Master it is also discretionary to the modeler. Your choice as to how and where to add it…

AGREE!

 

[Uwek]

I think that in part our perceptions of historical accessories is looking for permanent fixtures on all ships of type and era. When in reality many fixtures, including deck furniture and rigging are discretionary to the whims of ship Masters and yard Masters. Anti-Boarding rigging is a discretionary fixture. Placed when the Ship’s Master feels the need…or not. I am not surprised that consistent historical reference is hard to find. How does this translate to the model…since boarding netting is discretionary to the ship’s Master it is also discretionary to the modeler. Your choice as to how and where to add it…

well speaken
and btw a great and informative video -> Many Thanks to @lacucina - and btw2 also a warm welcome here on board of our forum

 

[Derek Payne]

I have a copy of the MCElvogue book that show the netting, although it is somewhat vague in its use.
However, this neetinghas been given elsewhere as a reason for the huge loss of life when the Mary Rose sank as it prevented crew members exiting the ship quickly when it went dow.
As to replicating it on my model that is so far built up to the main deck level, I have decided not to replicate the netting as its accuracy is too vague.

Derek Payne.