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Varnishes: Oil vs water based products

there are many good water based varnishes these days. ive used them on carpentry projects, cabinets n such with nice results. i cant vouch for the longevity though.

ive been using clear semi gloss spray acrylic for my ships. i have ships dating back over 50 years n they have retained their finish very well. the spray puts down an even coat and semi gloss has that waxed look.

im sure by the end of this thread you will have many finishes to choose from. plenty ways to skin a cat n all with great results.
 
Doesn't seem to be any real objection to the water based acrylics.
I see Frank Mastini also recommended acrylic in his book.
My only concern was the affect it might have on the wood (swelling, etc)
 
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suspend6 said:
Doesn't seem to be any real objection to the water based acrylics.
I see Frank Mastini also recommended acrylic in his book.
My only concern was the affect it might have on the wood (swelling, etc)
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1.) Water-based coatings will indeed raise grain on the surface of wooden models. This degree of this impact will vary somewhat depending upon the species. This feature often makes obtaining a perfectly smooth surface impossible. IMHO, more models are soiled by poor finishing than by shortcomings in other details. (Sealing wood with shellac and then sanding again before applying the water-based coating will go a long way to reducing this annoyance.)

2.) Water-based acrylics can also be more difficult to sand due to their "rubbery" nature when cured. Here again, it may be difficult to get a perfectly smooth finish for this reason.

3.) The pigments in the lower-priced modeling acrylics tend to have coarser pigment grinds that the expensive ones. This results in a coating that is not as opaque as one might wish, and which will require more coats to "cover," which will reduce the crispness of detail required for a compelling scale impression.

4.) For all of the above and other reasons, water-based coatings are frequently more difficult to run through an airbrush.

The water-based technology continues to improve, of course, but this has been the experience of knowledgeable painters since modern water-based coatings started becoming popular. Sadly, the modeling community has not supported sufficient demand to permit manufacturers to continue to produce the excellent "hot" solvent coatings that produced the far superior finish results of oil-based coatings like Floquil. (See: https://www.paulbudzik.com/tools-techniques/floquil-paint/floquil-paint.html Click on the red book at the bottom of the page for a PDF of the old Floquil instruction book, which contains a wealth of information on how to paint a model well.
 
I don't have anything to add regarding oil vs. water based; however, whatever you choose do not use a gloss finish. It looks bad and typical specifications for ship models to be displayed at museums forbid gloss finishes. Fair winds!
 
suspend6 said:
Almost ready to varnish/seal some decking. Looking for the most suitable product.
I feel that water-based products will tend to swell the timber and give rise to more sanding/rubbing back.
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See post above. If you intend to change the color of your decks, use an oil-based stain thinned very well, so that you can apply is with a brush and gradually add the color in successive applications until you achieve the color you want. A very thin wash is what you want. Not a thick coating that will require rubbing excess pigment off the surface. Scale models aren't made for rubbing. Table tops are.

Any of the oil-based modeling stains will be fine, but they are nothing other than thinned stain, so there's no point in paying an inflated price for paint thinner if you are interested in keeping unnecessary costs down. The trick is to use a very diluted stain which will evenly flow into nooks and crannies in the surface without any thick build up. The solvent will evaporate, leaving only the pigment and a bit of binder on the surface. The natural color of wood can be brought out by a coat of thinned clear shellac as well. (And not so many coats of shellac, or coats of shellac so thin, as to create a gloss finish.)

If the wood looks good as it is, there's no reason to coat it with anything. Models should be kept in cases if they are worth saving in any event. There's no reason whatsoever to be spraying clear coatings all over ship models. The more coating build up you have, the more scale detail you've lost.

Your mileage may vary, but this is how I do it.
 
Sometimes I mix my own colors. For example, the last model that I finished is a 1:32 scale Longboat. I found an old specification for painting one of these that said that the interior should be painted “drab.” Drab is actually a specific color used back in the 1700’s. There are websites with instructions for mixing these old colors. If I remember correctly drab is Burnt Umber mixed with white. I used acrylic artist colors (they come in tubes) mixed with some Matt Medium and thinned with water. I don’t remember any particular problem with grain raising.

You can avoid this problem by using alcohol instead of water as a thinner. Our local home improvement and hardware stores sell 90+ percent methanol as camp stove fuel. I keep a can on hand for thinning acrylics.

Roger
 
Bob Cleek said:
1.) Water-based coatings will indeed raise grain on the surface of wooden models. This degree of this impact will vary somewhat depending upon the species. This feature often makes obtaining a perfectly smooth surface impossible. IMHO, more models are soiled by poor finishing than by shortcomings in other details. (Sealing wood with shellac and then sanding again before applying the water-based coating will go a long way to reducing this annoyance.)

2.) Water-based acrylics can also be more difficult to sand due to their "rubbery" nature when cured. Here again, it may be difficult to get a perfectly smooth finish for this reason.

3.) The pigments in the lower-priced modeling acrylics tend to have coarser pigment grinds that the expensive ones. This results in a coating that is not as opaque as one might wish, and which will require more coats to "cover," which will reduce the crispness of detail required for a compelling scale impression.

4.) For all of the above and other reasons, water-based coatings are frequently more difficult to run through an airbrush.

The water-based technology continues to improve, of course, but this has been the experience of knowledgeable painters since modern water-based coatings started becoming popular. Sadly, the modeling community has not supported sufficient demand to permit manufacturers to continue to produce the excellent "hot" solvent coatings that produced the far superior finish results of oil-based coatings like Floquil. (See: https://www.paulbudzik.com/tools-techniques/floquil-paint/floquil-paint.html Click on the red book at the bottom of the page for a PDF of the old Floquil instruction book, which contains a wealth of information on how to paint a model well.
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is floquil still available? i loved their paints. do you recomend any other brand equivelents?
 
UNFORTUNALLY NO I TOPO LOVED THERE PAINTS ONLY ONES I COULD PAINT AND GET A GOOD FINISH TODAY UGH, UGH I USE ECOLINE WHEN I NEED A PAINTED FINISH THANKS MARRTEN WONDERFUL. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE YOU AND YOURS DON
 
paul ron said:
is floquil still available? i loved their paints. do you recomend any other brand equivelents?
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No, Testor's discontinued Floquil paint in 2013. Floquil was a brand of hobby paint that was considered the gold standard for model builders and hobbyists for many generations. The paint was an acrylic/enamel combination that was unique to Floquil and not found in many other brands, making it difficult for hobbyists to find alternatives.

Microscale has created a cross-reference chart to help people find substitute paint colors from other manufacturers. For example, if someone wants to use Testor's Floquil "Coach Green", they could use Tamiya's #71 Cockpit Green instead. Other options include Scale coat or Tru-Color

www.myperfectcolor.com

Floquil Paint Colors Precisely Matched in Paint and Spray Paint.

Floquil paint colors matched precisely in spray paint, bottles, pens and other sizes for painting applications.
www.myperfectcolor.com www.myperfectcolor.com
 
floquil was great for airbrushing. i used it ever since it hit the streets on my trains and other models over the years. i still have the weathering kit but the paints are dried to a lump in the bottles.
 
Bryian said:
The water based varnishes don’t seem to yellow over time compared to oil based.
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I've also found that water based varnishes aren't as "yellow" to start with, although I don't necessarily prefer this. I'd used Minwax oil-based Wipe-On Poly and really liked the rich color and finish produced by it, but when varnishing only a few parts at a time, before assembly, it resulted in a lot of brush cleaning and sticky hands. So for my Ragusian Carrack, I switched to Minwax water-based Wipe-On Poly. Although I used it, I never liked it. The color seemed "cold" to me, not the warmer (okay, more yellow) finish of the oil based. It also did not seem to sink in to the wood as much, staying more on the surface. It went on thicker, was harder to wipe off for a smooth finish, and in general left more material on the surface, which I did not like. I'm back to using oil-based products, Watco Danish Oil finishes.

The above may only apply to the Minwax products I used, but that is my experience with them, so I prefer oil-based.
 
Signet said:
I've also found that water based varnishes aren't as "yellow" to start with, although I don't necessarily prefer this. I'd used Minwax oil-based Wipe-On Poly and really liked the rich color and finish produced by it, but when varnishing only a few parts at a time, before assembly, it resulted in a lot of brush cleaning and sticky hands. So for my Ragusian Carrack, I switched to Minwax water-based Wipe-On Poly. Although I used it, I never liked it. The color seemed "cold" to me, not the warmer (okay, more yellow) finish of the oil based. It also did not seem to sink in to the wood as much, staying more on the surface. It went on thicker, was harder to wipe off for a smooth finish, and in general left more material on the surface, which I did not like. I'm back to using oil-based products, Watco Danish Oil finishes.

The above may only apply to the Minwax products I used, but that is my experience with them, so I prefer oil-based.
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Oil based finishes ? Containing what? Naphtha? Other petroleum distillates? Be careful.
 
In Madagascar, there is a small society ( 35 people about ) which makes boats for clients around the world and museums in France and Usa
video has subtitles in English if you want ( "traduire automatiquement ", then " English "
in an other video ( I didn't find it ) the same woman said that for varnish they use linseed oil and beeswax
 
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I use MinWax water based polyurethane matte sheen as a sealer and a finish on all my models of late. I like the crystal clear finish. The clear finish allows the finish on the wood to show through. But reading down this post we all have our favorites with reasons or preferences why. I have not experienced serious raising of the wood grain with water based MinWax poly…
 
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