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Hull filling and sanding

  • Thread starter Thread starter TonyC
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Hello,
Can any body give me some tips on PoF hull filling and sanding?
I fill and sand the 2nd planking until everything is looking great with no obvious defects then prime the hull which reveals lots of areas needing attention.
Here's the problem I always have. After a few bouts of sand, fill and paint I still end up with some planks sort of raising /curving up from the hull which don't seem to flatten out after more sanding. The planks just seem to round off instead of the sanding block taking the top off flattening the offending planks. Picture corugated iron if there are planks like this alongside each other. It's driving me nuts!
Is it better to use sanding sponges, sticks or blocks? Or just using sandpaper in your hand. I've tried all these but still get the same problem. Any tips appreciate.

Cheers.
 
Use HARD BLOCKS. If you use soft sanding sponges, the only wood you remove is the softer parts of the wood, and each plank varies in hardness depending on where t came from in the tree and which tree it came from. Using a block, whether it be curved or flat, only takes wood off the proud areas of model, the high spots. If you fill the low spots with filler, then you only need to remove a little off the high areas in orders to average the highs and lows into one smooth shape.

Soft sanding blocks or using your hand to sand should only be done to polish the wood with the finest grits on the final passes, not for shaping. In some areas, you may need to sand across the grain to remove material from areas that are hard to access due to obstructions. Avoid it if you can, but this is okay for the rough shaping passes where you remove the most material, but subsequent passes need to be sanded along the grain in order to 1) remove the cross grain scratches you just put into the model, and 2) remove more material in lesser amounts for smoothing the contours. You can make blocks that can reach inside corners, curved blocks that help prevent you from making flat spots, or just use a flat block in a careful manner so you don't make flat spots.

When your arms get tired and you want to see just how much sanding you have left to do, take the hull outside and look along the hull surface using sunlight to detect flat spots and raised bumps. Circle these with a pencil. Fill the flat spots and fare them into the high spots by block sanding. Do this cycle of sanding, observing, filling and sanding until the local flats and bumps or linear ridges are gone.

If you have filled the spaced between bulkheads with balsa blocks, a "mouse" oscillating sander allows you to remove material and roughly sculpt the blocks down to the bulkhead edges pretty fast.

The filler patched hull appears rough and bumpy even though it is glass smooth, owing to the variances in colors and textures.
1729957960472.png

After final planking, your time sanding and filling each defect pays off dramatically.
1729960543868.png
 
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Hi Dariv,
Thanks for your reply. I'll try using a sanding tool which is more rigid in future. I try to get the hulls super smooth but these damn planks seem to either lift or I've been doing it wrong by using a too flexible sanding method. My reults end up ok but I find I end up using far too much paint to disguise bumps etc.
Thanks again.
 
Are you sure the planks are glued down.
Sometimes if the plank is loose it will be pressed down when you sand it then pop up again when you release the sand paper.
I run some thin ca into the offending plank to cure this.
 
Hi Jeremy,
Yes, I've encountered that problem as well. I pierce the plank and put super thin ca glue in the hole.
Its when I for example have slight clinkering, there always seems to be a plank here and there that stands proud and just won't sand flat!
I think Dariv has pointed me in the right direction, I'll use a totally rigid sander.

Thanks for your reply. I'm starting the Vanguard Models Duchess of Kent and want the hull to be as good as possible.
 
Hello,
Can any body give me some tips on PoF hull filling and sanding?
I fill and sand the 2nd planking until everything is looking great with no obvious defects then prime the hull which reveals lots of areas needing attention.
Here's the problem I always have. After a few bouts of sand, fill and paint I still end up with some planks sort of raising /curving up from the hull which don't seem to flatten out after more sanding. The planks just seem to round off instead of the sanding block taking the top off flattening the offending planks. Picture corugated iron if there are planks like this alongside each other. It's driving me nuts!
Is it better to use sanding sponges, sticks or blocks? Or just using sandpaper in your hand. I've tried all these but still get the same problem. Any tips appreciate.

Cheers.
Hi Dariv,
You've done a super planking job there. That's what I'm hoping to get.
 
ts when I for example have slight clinkering, there always seems to be a plank here and there that stands proud and just won't sand flat!
If they are standing proud it may be that they are raised from edge bending straight pieces of planking. Are you pre-shaping the planks properly so they lay in place without having to force them with more than light finger pressure? If the planks are properly pre-shaped they will not raise up and you will not need clamps to hold in place when gluing them.
Allan
 
Hi Dariv,
You've done a super planking job there. That's what I'm hoping to get.
Just go slow trimming the and fitting the final planking strips and you'll amaze yourself on what a beautiful hull you've made. What type of wood is the final planking made of? It it's mahogany, you can buy strips of Sapele wood from China inexpensively on eBay, and the grain and color matches mahogany strips perfectly. Some kits don't supply enough wood to finish the model if you make lot of cutting/trimming mistakes, and you have to locate more from another source.

Another tip. If you notices gaps in any of the seams on the final planking, take a scrap piece of that planking and a sander, and make a small pile of sawdust. The sawdust must come from the same type of wood as the planks. Then mix the sawdust with PVA glue into a thick paste, and before it dries, press the paste into the gaps. After it dries in about 10 minutes, lightly sand off the excess with a sanding block. That wood filler you just made does an excellent job hiding narrow gaps. The darker section of the seam in the center of the picture below was one such gap on my hull. It looks a lot better than leaving the gap there, and almost makes the defect disappear.

1730029693376.png

-Kurt
 
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If they are standing proud it may be that they are raised from edge bending straight pieces of planking. Are you pre-shaping the planks properly so they lay in place without having to force them with more than light finger pressure? If the planks are properly pre-shaped they will not raise up and you will not need clamps to hold in place when gluing them.
Allan
If the planks start to clinker at the curves of the bow, soak them in water, then bend them to the shape they need to be and hold them there until they dry. Or, use an electric hot iron to shape them. The hot iron steams the planks and they hold their new shape. If you pre-bend and fit the plank to the hull without the need to press and hold them in place until the glue dries, it will be much easier, and the plank edges wont pop off if the glue fails. You should not attempt to glue a springy plank to the hull if it doesn't want to stay down. You will spend more time trying to fight a springy plank than if you pre-shaped the plank properly and just glued straight to the hull without clamps or pins or tape to hold it down.

Pre-bending wet planks with an electric hot iron planking bender.
1730031746746.png1730031805037.png

To really get a handle on planking, you also need to learn how to spile a plank, or edge-bend a plank. Read this thread: Edge Bending Planks
 
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Another popular method that works beautifully can be seen on the four part video, starting with lining off the planks so you can taper the breadth from midships to the rabbet at the now then heat bend them to the proper shape. If done correctly finger pressure with PVA for less than a minute or a few seconds with CA will hold with out clamps.
Allan
 
I find that cabinet scrapers are a cheap, everlasting alternative to sandpaper. As a variation on a suggestion earlier in this post: smear PVA into any cracks, scrape before the glue sets and rub the scrapings into the crack. The scrapings tend to be more filling than sawdust and don't contain grit
scrapers.jpg
 
Hi Guys,
Thanks for all your helpful comments. I do all the usual tapering, edge bending and chamfering etc.
After further reading I think the problem lies with sandpaper. Apparently it just rounds off the top of planks which is part of my problem. I'll try using a rigid file going at 90 degrees to the planks.
My hulls eventually come out 95% ok. after loads of cycles of sand fill paint. It's just that 5% that annoys me!

Cheers.
 
Th
I find that cabinet scrapers are a cheap, everlasting alternative to sandpaper. As a variation on a suggestion earlier in this post: smear PVA into any cracks, scrape before the glue sets and rub the scrapings into the crack. The scrapings tend to be more filling than sawdust and don't contain grit
View attachment 480480
Thanks John, I was looking at scrapers yesterday.
Another popular method that works beautifully can be seen on the four part video, starting with lining off the planks so you can taper the breadth from midships to the rabbet at the now then heat bend them to the proper shape. If done correctly finger pressure with PVA for less than a minute or a few seconds with CA will hold with out clamps.
Allan
Thanks,
I've watched that so many times. Makes it all look too easy!!
 
Th
If they are standing proud it may be that they are raised from edge bending straight pieces of planking. Are you pre-shaping the planks properly so they lay in place without having to force them with more than light finger pressure? If the planks are properly pre-shaped they will not raise up and you will not need clamps to hold in place when gluing them.
Allan
Thanks,
Yes, I sometimes soak and clamp them to the hull overnight to dry. I'll get better after help like this

Cheers
 
I've watched that so many times. Makes it all look too easy!!
Actually it is a lot easier than spiling each strake. Spiling really is not an option anyway for kits that provide straight planking strips. It looks like some of the best quality kits are going to laser cut planks that are already spiled and tapered in breadth so the result is realistic planking where every plank ends at the rabbet. (excepting when the occasional drop strake is needed)
Allan
 
I think that on wooden hulled ships showing a bit of the planking under paint or stain is desirable. It shows the viewer how the ship was made.

Different story for a steel hulled ship. I am going to try photographers foil to simulate the steel plates. Lou
 
Actually it is a lot easier than spiling each strake. Spiling really is not an option anyway for kits that provide straight planking strips. It looks like some of the best quality kits are going to laser cut planks that are already spiled and tapered in breadth so the result is realistic planking where every plank ends at the rabbet. (excepting when the occasional drop strake is needed)
Allan
When a kit gives you straight planks, and you have a bluff bow which is full and sharp curvature, there are a couple things you can do. First, as the planking strip approaches the bow, you narrow the plank by removing material only from the top edge. This way, when the plank curves inboard toward the stem, and as it twists to conform to the angle of the hull. This can help, but there are times when the curve you need to fit a straight plank to is too sharp for just this technique alone. So, you reach for the 2nd technique, which is called edge bending.

Basically, instead of cutting a curved plank from sheet wood, you bend the plank within same plane as the plank. What makes this hard is that the plank will want to pucker or split. To counter this, you make an edge bending jig, soak the plank thoroughly in water, and apply heat or allow the plank to dry on the jig that holds the plank in the curve you desire. You can only bend a straight plank so much before it wants to pucker and fold, so this technique also has its limits. If you can get the plank to curve a little sharper than the curvature required to fit to the hull, the wood will relax and straighten a bit when it is removed from the jig, and the fit will be the best.

I was able to edge bend even thin veneers of mahogany with a jig that applied pressure along the entire area of the bend through the use a of a LOT of small spring clamps. The wood wanted to pucker, and all the folds were squashed flat and held flat until the soaked wood dried in several hours. In most cases, the wood did not split along the grain, which is always the danger when edge bending coarse grained hardwood veneers.

When a combination of the two techniques above cannot achieve the proper fit without the clinker effect using straight wood strips, that's when you reach for the last resort, spiling. Set the kit provided strips aside, and procure your own sheet wood and spile the planks. It most cases, you should be able to work with the straight strips.

The type of wood makes a big difference in how sharp a curve you can generate with edge bending. Lime wood, beech, and basswood are very flexible and bend a lot easier than walnut or oak. So, you can achieve good results with these woods on the first planking layer using straight planks from these materials. Final planking with veneers will always be a little more difficult owing to how thin the wood is.
 
Lime wood, beech, and basswood are very flexible and bend a lot easier than walnut or oak.
Totally agree Kurt,
Many species of walnut (with one exception that I know of), sapele and oak are nasty to work and so open grained even if you spile or edge bend them wet and hot they look out of place at our scales. American black walnut is much closer grained but is not fun to work and like any walnut or sapele is a lung irritant or worse for some folks.
Allan
 
Totally agree Kurt,
Many species of walnut (with one exception that I know of), sapele and oak are nasty to work and so open grained even if you spile or edge bend them wet and hot they look out of place at our scales. American black walnut is much closer grained but is not fun to work and like any walnut or sapele is a lung irritant or worse for some folks.
Allan

Hmm, beech is a known carcinogen, as evidenced by furniture makers in the Buckinghamshire area in the 19 and 20th centuries.
 
I suggest that you sand using a suitable flexible batten. This is just a thin, flat stick (of wood or other material... a spring steel length of packing banding or a flat length of stiff plastic) with a piece of suitable grit abrasive sheet glued to its surface. (You can use feathering disk adhesive used for gluing abrasive sheets to rotary sander pads, if you can find it at your local auto supply store, or rubber cement thinned with a bit of acetone.) Glue a small block to each end of the top of the batten to make it easier to hold each end. The batten will conform to the general shape of the hull when you sand while gently pressing it uniformly against the curve of the hull, producing a fair finish without bumps and hollows. Start with coarser grit abrasive and work down (towards higher grit numbers) until you get a finish as smooth as a baby's bottom. Apply a base coat after the surfacing putty has filled the worst of the defects and expect to have to make two or three runs at sanding it before you get all the defects filled. There's no substitute for being OCD about the process.

Before going further, in case may be unaware, you should not attempt to achieve a good fair surface for applying any sort of water-based coating (i.e., acrylics) to bare wood. The water in water-based coatings will be absorbed into the bare wood, which will tend to absorb more water into the soft wood between the grain, causing the wood to swell and then, when dry, shrink, leaving the harder grain standing proud. There's no point in trying to sand a piece of wood that's going to move. I've found it best to seal all bare wood with clear ("white") shellac before applying any other coating or filler. The shellac, which is thinned with alcohol as its solvent, readily soaks into the wood and, when the alcohol evaporates, leaves behind as effective a moisture barrier as can be hoped for in any coating system and a shellacked surface is compatible with any subsequent coating one might wish to apply over it. Shellac also "hardens" softwood surfaces so that sanding doesn't "raise fuzz" on the surface of softer woods such as basswood. As for the use of water-based coatings generally, the technology has improved greatly in recent decades, but the fact remains that water-based coatings seem generally to form a more flexible film than oil-based coatings (enamels, etc.) and the more flexible films are simply a lot more difficult to sand. In its simplest example, a latex paint will form a latex film which is essentially a rubber coating. If you're old enough to have ever tried to sand a bicycle inner tube to key the adhesion of a rubber cement patch, you'll understand what I'm talking about here.

To get the worst of the imperfections, I use Interlux Surfacing Putty (https://www.amazon.com/Interlux-Y257-PT-Surfacing-Putty/dp/B0000AY85D/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=1342504259915083&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Gz17nVrpFVxKQ8P_6sDBQPPgXDSMiQW3w5iBublcDl_m_jTVkBjHLN9H2edp1EYe6h8t6UefoL6XgiogtMHS0_Vr7qm0FLq5A20SIi-lVWrTceFn1DNcvCI_bVPEdGY9._g6lfx8ktMBts3uGo5YSTAWIUkPRsvsHbeCKQJsGlqE&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83906731284955&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=88716&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83906856471787:loc-190&hydadcr=4123_13164389&keywords=interlux+surfacing+putty&msclkid=2aecc6cbc93512a898d3a1e3959983d0&qid=1730698422&sr=8-1) which, like everything else, has gotten rather expensive, although a pint can, kept well sealed, should last for many models. The stuff is thinned with acetone. A bit added to the can every now and then and the can left upside down overnight to absorb will keep the mix at the texture of peanut butter. Apply thinly with a palette knife. The stuff sands like butter and has a very fine grain. You'll probably be able to find an equivalent product at your local auto body and fender materials supply shop for less than the Interlux marine product. (Most drywall "mud" is much too coarsely ground and absorbent for a perfect scale finish.) All fillers and surfacing putties must be primed, or they will "stand out" when a finish coating is applied due to their different absorption characteristic from the adjacent coating.

One more generic caveat for the uninitiated: If you wish to have any chance of creating a perfect finish on a model, or anything else for that matter, scrupulously ban from anywhere you may ever want to do any finishing the presence of any sort of silicone material, particularly aerosol canned silicone spray lubricants, but also any cured silicone you may attempt to sand... heck, any of the damn stuff at all. Silicone has a very bad habit of contaminating large areas wherever it occurs. If as much as a microscopic speck of silicone material is transferred to a surface you wish to paint, that speck, which may be so small as to be invisible to the eye, will create a "fisheye," a round surface defect in the finish resulting from a variation in the surface tension of the liquid coating. It's near impossible to cure this defect because sanding it out only causes the offending speck to move elsewhere, or even multiply, only to reappear when the area is coated again. Silicone "fisheyes" are so much of a problem that most commercial finishing shops, such as auto body paint shops, have strict house rules preventing the stuff anywhere on their premises.
There is a product on the market sometimes called "sanding primer" or "sanding basecoat," among other things, which is, essentially, a primer paint with finely ground chalk ("whiting") added. (e.g., https://www.amazon.com/Rust-Oleum-249279-Automotive-11-Ounce-Filler/dp/B003CT4AM0/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=1337007374146822&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Xc9akm7G9iaeig-88X5-Lmg0S_LIG1z24kWXtpzohABPdrOB-sHewcxjoSSQnaWe1LqqQu6U2ejwBLtVDMj7B9oDq8vmSuT1lQBloM6ZATl6Z6_67YcuVExKNEGF7V_SOa6QMR4eEjiukuOQvys7ydI-MmfHPISzZoIgnLgRaVQw8hGgpDqrzuMrSeblC-E8qcVmDCRG2paFVxAo2JrKRNDCobOe6yEIzIpVz0JnJUrUY_VNkanLBOt3QlrfYC_37QUQ7832wV_HdGUKFMeoqPyjH0xw4kJUoxLadks8Dhw.5AKNtDwZPxaWcYSZXp--Vq4x83-Lpb9QPcbv1N09JDw&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83563157972176&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=88716&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83563772428900:loc-190&hydadcr=18754_13468636&keywords=automotive+sanding+primer&qid=1730699088&sr=8-1&th=1)Use this to (spray if possible) to seal your faired hull and then sand it using a sanding batten with very fine abrasive sheet applied. As long as you don't sand all of your sanding primer off (in which case you must apply another coat and sand again) you're good to go with your finish coat after sanding your sanding primer down to at least 320 grit or finer and then scrupulously cleaning every speck of dust off of the surface. Use a painter's "tack rag" to do the final cleaning. (https://www.amazon.com/MāKRS-Particles-Woodworking-Varnishing-Anti-Static/dp/B0CCXJSC6R/ref=sr_1_21?adgrpid=1334807683666564&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.4CEmo49Nznv0asTw6FCQ2sUOxaTvNwxNdhEsyXq_0BWgF7gJsx8hz5rK97XdRaNrF7bi7FSd9LMFjBC4IvPo8dt9tsOV2CZgB5QIY_UvNaieXC3TwtsCbMsFAuIGE7mQMtjdBPDjewVNJMHhpC_B12CwBLK-S7PQtvdfg4jc2CYnvj9DWLu8yWa_MneeOeRRWZk_SNkYvbZCv1QZtBuNNbyh_IBPlSbl4vdDHkHdfXk.0Wn2D4_7Dle4nU0-Vb6caeh1KXKM7otGy_fGZxeXnok&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83425803218069&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=88716&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83425835450304:loc-190&hydadcr=2079_13504090&keywords=tack+rags+for+painting&msclkid=362387abfd46137880bae08395fa4fcf&qid=1730701508&sr=8-21&th=1 ) This "tacky" cheesecloth will pick up all stray dust particles. They are sold in any paint store. (Read the instructions. There's a particular way to progressively unfold the pad for use. Keep it in a zip-loc plastic bag after opening to prevent its drying out.) In addition to strong cross-lighting, use your fingertips to feel for any imperfections. Your sense of touch is more sensitive than your eyes for this.​

If you are an experience brush painter using properly conditioned paint and a quality brush, you should be able to apply a perfect finish coat. In real life, there are very few of those around unless you've served an apprenticeship as a fine furniture finisher. You can also use an airbrush if you know how to use one. (They are easier to achieve a good finish than a brush in the hands of an inexperienced painter.) While I realize some do, I never use "rattle cans" for a variety of reasons, most of all because the manufacturing quality of their nozzles aren't sufficiently reliable to produce a sufficiently fine spray for scale use. Applying paint too thickly only destroys the fine detail that makes a crisply detailed model properly "snap" when viewed.

If after applying a good finish coat on a hull, there are still a few minor imperfections, such as a few specks of dust, the surface can be hand-rubbed using pumice and rottenstone. These very fine abrasive products are sold in paint stores and are used by dipping a damp soft cloth into the pumice or rottenstone powder and gently rubbing the surface to remove the offending imperfections. (Remember, here we're talking about very small imperfections. A big drip, brush stroke, or "curtain" is beyond rubbing out and, at best, must "dry" (cure) for a time until it can be sanded away and the defect repaired by further painting and sanding.) Pumice is the coarser abrasive and rottenstone the less coarse abrasive. (Or is it the other way around? It will say on the container label. Follow the manufacturer's instructions. I'm too lazy to walk out to my workshop and look on the containers I have in stock. :rolleyes:) Using these abrasives, a finish coat can be hand-rubbed to an amazing degree of smoothness. The coarser abrasive powder will "knock down" a glossy finish to matte, but continual rubbing with the finer powder will "raise" the gloss as high as one might wish. (This is how fine artisanal furniture finishers polish a piece of fancy custom furniture.)

A perfect scale finish takes a bit of work, although, as with all things, the more you do it, the easier it gets. Practicing on scrap wood is a wise investment of time. Never apply any coating without testing it on a scrap piece of the same material, at least until you are sure of the properties of the materials you are working with. Nothing is worse than having to remove a coating job because of some disastrous misstep like applying an incompatible coating on top of another. In this endeavor, as in most of modeling, "perfect is never the enemy of 'good enough." "Perfect" is the essence of creating the impression of reality in miniature scale. In my experience, the number one flaw of an unconvincing model, aside from errors in scale, will be a poor paint job. (And before anybody accuses me of "rivet-counting," let me say that if you're happy aspiring to a lesser standard, by all means, follow your bliss.)
 
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