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CA for metal

C

cuttyjimr

Joined
Oct 23, 2019
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Location
Grosse Pointe Woods. MI
Has anyone had experience with using CA for metal parts?
Trying to build mast rings for Billlings Cutty Sark. The ones in the kit are plywood and so thick the belaying pins won't protrude. I am trying to get results close to those shown in the Longridge photos in his volume 2 on the Cutty.
I am using annealed brass trimmed down to about 1/8 inch wide. The rings are premade Amati and Artesenia Latina. My soldering skills are very poor so I am looking to use CA.
Any help greatly appreciated,
Jim
 
The old joke- "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?" "Practice, practice, practice..." Soldering can be learned. Make sure the brass is surgically clean, use the right flux and make sure the metal is HOT before you apply the solder. Hope this did not come across as too cranky...
 
You can buy small sheets of aircraft plywood that are down to 1/64" (0.4mm) thick which is the equivalent of 1 1/8" thick at 1:75.
Allan
 
pebbleworm said:
The old joke- "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?" "Practice, practice, practice..." Soldering can be learned. Make sure the brass is surgically clean, use the right flux and make sure the metal is HOT before you apply the solder. Hope this did not come across as too cranky...
Click to expand...

What pebbleworm said. You're going to have to deal with it someday. CA isn't all it's cracked up to be. Epoxy would be a better adhesive for metal, but there's no substitute for soldering. Do some research online. Watch YouTube videos that show how to "silver solder" and how to solder for jewelry making. Follow the instructions. I use an oxy-propane torch which will also burn oxy-acetylene or oxy-mapp gas. (See: https://www.ebay.com/itm/355907622171?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr=1&amdata=enc:19rPvNPmLSamw0Kt7xqyz1Q45&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=355907622171&targetid=4580909052765417&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=603247545&mkgroupid=1236951576251627&rlsatarget=pla-4580909052765417&abcId=9316119&merchantid=51291&msclkid=86e0fcf0230f1e6423f29bce8851d552 or https://www.temu.com/tunqi-mini-soldering--kit--jewelry-welding-crafting-tool-with-5--tips-ideal-for-diy-projects-repairs-g-601099682022025.html?_oak_mp_inf=EImFluim1ogBGgpmb2diZGtxbG5oIJeb1ea0Mg==&top_gallery_url=https://img.kwcdn.com/product/fancy/890cbb21-b878-4c65-a0d0-ad3bfd7b0e37.jpg&spec_gallery_id=2476190721&refer_page_sn=15498&refer_source=0&freesia_scene=689&_oak_freesia_scene=689&_oak_rec_ext_1=MTcyMw&_oak_gallery_order=565155626,924067210,1006954240,1217169437,2086465598&refer_page_el_sn=223143&_x_vst_scene=adg&_x_ads_channel=bing&_x_ads_sub_channel=search&_x_ads_account=176820610&_x_ads_set=521419749&_x_ads_id=1322714887388393&_x_ads_creative_id=82669909807107&_x_ns_source=o&_x_ns_msclkid=eea7268179701ca0752e41bfd4286487&_x_ns_match_type=e&_x_ns_bid_match_type=be&_x_ns_query=Small Torch&_x_ns_keyword=small torches&_x_ns_device=c&_x_ns_targetid=kwd-82670828800874:loc-190&_x_ns_extensionid=&refer_page_name=kuiper&refer_page_id=15498_1732160868743_0wpx6g20rd&_x_sessn_id=nlpvf1bw38 NOTE: Both these models are Chinese counterfeis, but they will performs acceptably once you find and fix the leaks in the hoses! The real deal, the Gentec Small Torch is here: https://www.amazon.com/Kit-prop-Disp-Tanks-kstp14-tsp/dp/B0058EDA14/ref=sr_1_19?adgrpid=1343603779318028&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.6O-_G9uHX4KTzL3_w5-g1e27un8JZNEmHTzEUFzBIxZePIybyYpNCClnJfzQdfB24GyBTZ3VC7zetb5WDZjlP72_t34ACExVpEF8MdLVjIZi27HDimRYSQJm1YycsawbC6Y-JPt_fmQY2xbjc9qzEg7B21WS10DaVcv55ZS356S-TOHQyF3obgJdB0zR1tq0qU-6SQ5xwqaWIJqFo2EVVRuYG5ne6JBlVzqqYE1D36HsAZXPeLOHQKe83kBWsTSqpxFl6FnAQ1iF_0XzVSfnxdTsqS2DFoYz9bfnZCXF6_E.i9828dCcNRYZG-iSsKUSDtec5raDXg_JUjnYLEIuA9w&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83975308087679&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=88716&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83975591916478:loc-190&hydadcr=11957_10267328&keywords=gentec+small+torch&qid=1732161081&sr=8-19

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If you get a "Small Torch" like the above, be sure to buy the regulators for your gas bottles at the same time. They're expensive, but essential to make the torch work.

There are other jeweler's torches on the market and you'd do well to check the jewelers' supply houses for a wide selection. I would not encourage anybody to get a regular electric soldering iron or gun. They will melt solder, but they don't concentrate enough heat in a small enough area to do the job for modeling tasks. A torch is what you want. Some butane torches will suffice, although most don't offer the feature of being able to shape the flame as one might desire.

I'd also encourage anybody who's contemplating any modeling soldering to invest in a Quadhands magnetic soldering stand. See: https://www.quadhands.com/collections/all Here again, there are now a million Chinese counterfeits of this tool, but the original Quadhands line is of a much higher quality that the knock-offs, as is usually the case. (The alligator clips are of much higher quality, for one thing.) This gizmo makes soldering (and gluing, rigging, and a lot more) a much less frustrating exercise and they don't cost that much.


1732162044146.png


Finally, I highly recommend this book on the subject miniature modeling with brass and copper: https://www.amazon.com/Model-Building-Brass-Kenneth-Foran/dp/0764340042

Model Building with Brass​

by Kenneth C. Foran (Author)

1732162502516.png

Working with brass and copper is essential if one wishes to progress to scratch-building or even kit-bashing. What the masters can do building with metal is quite intimidating, but few of us will ever go that far. Working brass and copper is not difficult with some good instruction and a few hours of practice. It's not expensive to acquire the basic tools and it will elevate your modeling to a much higher level.

See:
and
and
 
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I agree with the above, I have used a small butane torch, but my go to is an electric soldering gun. The important things are to clean the metal, use flux and make sure the metals being soldered are themselves hot enough to melt the solder.
 
Good advice about soldering, but if you're not keen on the idea you could try GS Hypo Cement which is what jewelers use. I've found that it works very well on everything and doesn't have the hassles of CA (e.g., no nasty fumes, doesn't stick your fingers together).
 
AllanKP69 said:
Another reason to love this forum. I have never heard of this, but from what I can find out about on-line, it looks like it worth a try as it is proven over the past 94 years. Thanks for the post Thomas.
Allan
Click to expand...
Glad you found the post helpful. I found the cement after I developed a bad allergy to CA and wanted something to fix metal decorations to the ship I was working on. It doesn't work as fast as CA but that hasn't been a deal breaker. Good luck!
 
I am not a fan of CA in general, but will use it on occasion. My preference for metal to metal is silver soldering for brass and copper and will use soft solder if applicable. For glue I have used epoxy which is fine, but I hope the GS Hypo is easier to use than epoxy.
Thanks again
Allan
 
AllanKP69 said:
I am not a fan of CA in general, but will use it on occasion. My preference for metal to metal is silver soldering for brass and copper and will use soft solder if applicable. For glue I have used epoxy which is fine, but I hope the GS Hypo is easier to use than epoxy.
Thanks again
Allan
Click to expand...
I agree with you that soldering is often the best solution. But this is why I usually look for other alternatives:

 
cuttyjimr said:
Has anyone had experience with using CA for metal parts?
Click to expand...
I did, the gel form is the best I found. But not everything. When it is metal on metal, soldering is the advice en if it is metal on wood or something else. There are special glues available. But ca will do the job to, but not the best solution. You got a few tips here above and the jeweler glue/cement looks a good good advice to me. Didn't know that too.
 
AllanKP69 said:
I am not a fan of CA in general, but will use it on occasion. My preference for metal to metal is silver soldering for brass and copper and will use soft solder if applicable. For glue I have used epoxy which is fine, but I hope the GS Hypo is easier to use than epoxy.
Thanks again
Allan
Click to expand...
Just watched a few youtube video's showing underwhelming results using 'GS Hypo'.

Hope that isn't typical.
 
I am building a model of a steel hulled freighter. At 1:96 scale, the only thing to use for building parts at this scale is brass; especially brass sheet, and this needs to be soldered. Photo below. Yes it’s witchcraft, but once you figure it out it’s not difficult. I suspect that what works is highly dependent on work habits which differ from person to person but here’s how I do it.

I use an electric soldering iron. I have owned two cordless ones and while they can work surprisingly well, they are expensive junk. I now use one of three regular irons that plug into a wall socket, not a soldering gun, a 15 watt, a 25 watt, and a 40 watt. None are variable temperature. Most of the time the 40 watt is required.

It is important to keep the soldering iron tip tinned. This is a thin coating of solder that remains on the tip. Tinning compound is available from usual sources. A small can lasts a long time.

I only use soft solder. The original soft solder is a lead tin alloy. I prefer an alloy not containing lead and a number of silver alloy soft solders are available today. Note: These are different from the true Silver Solders or Hard Solders that require use of a torch. Solders are available in different diameters. Use the smallest one that will work. My favorite is a 1/32” diameter silver alloy solder. I personally have not had good luck with the soldering pastes.

In addition to the solder’s rosin core, I apply a liquid, not a paste flux, with a tiny brush. This is a water thin clear liquid that flows into the joint and seems to pull the hot solder in. The old fashioned name is Bakers Fluid.

I use ordinary sandpaper, to clean the surfaces to be soldered. The little emory boards for fingernails are good for this. All of the dull oxide need s to be removed. If I remember I’ll dunk the part in a bottle of acetone that I keep on my workbench but I suspect that the flux is aggressive enough for.nthis to be unnecessary.

I solder with a HOT iron. While this might. See my to be counterintuitive heat transfer is time dependent. By quickly soldering the joint you minimize transfer of heat to places that you don’t want to get hot. Another effective technique is to put a blob of solder and then apply this hot metal to the joint. In some cases, this seems to work better than first heating the joint.

And finally, the ideal tool for, removing unwanted solder is my Proxxon pencil engraver.

Roger

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More about soldering.

Solder will NOT bridge gaps. It WILL flow into a tightly fitted joint. There are three reasons for a poorly soldered joint: lack of heat, dirty contact surfaces, or a poorly fitted joint. The last is often the sleeper. A joint that looks soldered will fail later when handled. Solder is often denser than the metals being joined. They will, therefore, float atop melted solder destroying proper alignment. I personally don’t use the multi hands clips that Bob Cleek shows above. Instead, I make little jigs from craft plywood and aluminum sheet. For me, soldering is an activity where much time is spent setting up, and if this is done properly, the actual soldering process is almost instantaneous.

If the iron is hot, and the solder doesn’t flow into the joint, it’s best to talke the joint apart and go through the fitup process again. Advice that i don’t follow often enough.
 
With regard to CA on metal parts, I have used HPD "Tire Glue" product No. IC-2000. It is a thicker CA adhesive with a 30 second set time (but can be accelerated). It is black in colour which works well with blackened brass and copper. I only use it on parts that are stress-free. Otherwise I go with the soldering route.
 
cuttyjimr said:
Has anyone had experience with using CA for metal parts?
Trying to build mast rings for Billlings Cutty Sark. The ones in the kit are plywood and so thick the belaying pins won't protrude. I am trying to get results close to those shown in the Longridge photos in his volume 2 on the Cutty.
I am using annealed brass trimmed down to about 1/8 inch wide. The rings are premade Amati and Artesenia Latina. My soldering skills are very poor so I am looking to use CA.
Any help greatly appreciated,
Jim
Click to expand...
1. Sometimes it works, sometimes it "kinda" works and sometimes it doesn't.
2. CA (aka CYA) was not formulated to work on metal. The original use was on gluing skin.
3. You really need to know how to soft solder AND how to hard (silver)solder.
4. You need to purchase a few "tools" and learn how to use them. There is a lot of VERY USEFUL info in the replies herein.
 
bill36 said:
3. You really need to know how to soft solder AND how to hard (silver)solder.
Click to expand...
Very true. I expect most of us are "self-taught solderers." It can be a frustrating enterprise. Roger's "essential elements" are most important.

I have found that silver soldering is preferable to soft (lead, etc.) soldering, particularly for very small faying surfaces. This is because the silver soldering yields so much stronger a joint and the less area the faying surfaces present, i.e., the smaller the joint, the stronger the solder needs to be to provide strength approaching the strength of the parts themselves.

Silver soldering does require the use of a torch because the heat required is several orders of magnitude greater than for soft solder. I purchase silver solder in wire form, hammer the end of the wire flat, and nip off tiny bits which I place on the joint in the fluxed area and then apply heat from the tip of the flame from my Tiny Torch. I use the Tiny Torch because it provides a flame about the size of a grain of rice. (Oxygen and propane work fine. You can use mapp gas or acetylene if you want greater heat for some reason.) The advantage of the high heat and small flame is that you don't have to end up heating such a great mass of metal as is often required when using a cooler heat source such as a soldering iron. (This is really important when you are soldering a number of joints adjacent to one another. To much heat and the adjacent joints melt and let go!) If the faying surfaces are properly in contact, a tiny bit of silver solder the size of a grain of coarse sand or two will near instantaneously be drawn into the joint upon application of the flame point. Once you get good at estimating the amount of solder required to create the joint (which will only joint where the pieces touch one another and flux has been applied,) cleanup of excess solder becomes much less of a chore. Using soft solder can end up with a big blob of solder that's spread all over the place, especially if one is using "rosin core" soft solder intended for electrical wire joints.

There's a lot of good information on silver soldering on YouTube, particularly from jewelry makers.

As always, of course, "your mileage may differ." Whatever works and is comfortable for the individual is just fine.
 
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