HMS Victory colors

[Stuart Little]

Me too, that dirty pink turns a striking ship into a background piece. It seems to me that nothing ever stood still ship-wise, and yellow ochre was evidently the true colour for some of the time, and that’ll do for me.

I use Vallejo yellow ochre as I mostly only use Vallejo paints, but there never seems to be any material difference across brands and media, as I have various brands of acrylic tubes that yield the same hue. You can give it a bit more depth by washing with a dark brown artists ink, or (probably) just about any other wash medium that takes your fancy. You’ll see the un-inked ochre colour on my log, link below.

I should mention Admiralty Paints, which I think are sold by Cornwall Model Boats. They do a set of Victory colours. I have these from more than a decade ago and the YO had quite a nice, deep tone to it.

I have both ,Admiralty & Vallejo Yellow Ochre, but on test the Admiralty paint does not cover well, & needs 2 or 3 (or more) coats, whereas, Vallejo covers well in one, but allows for de-nibbing, before a second coat. Therefore, I'm going with that one for my Jokita Vic. When allowed to settle, in the bottle, Admiralty paint forms light red on the surface, & Vallejo forms a pale green. I recently threw out an old tube of Windsor Newton light terracotta, which looked very much like the 'yucky' new colour of Vic!!!
I combined 4 bottles of yellow ochre in a small jar to avoid any variation in shade.

 

[Bob Ellis]

I am working on a Sergal HMS Victory, and have reached the point where its time for some color. I have several books on the Victory which show a yellowish color used on the actual ship around the gunports and the stern and side gallery trims. Is there a paint that is the same color as the actual Victory (preferably measured in ounces not gallons!). The yellow paint sold by Model Expo is too bright and too yellow. Ages of Sail has a kit for their Caldercraft Victory, but no picture of the color (besides out of stock with no indication of when it will be in stock). Not in any big hurry to paint, but would like some help in determining the actual color to use on my model, and if not readily available how do I mix colors to achieve a reasonable look.

Peter Goodwin would recommend that you follow the ship's carpenter's manifest. 50% white, 50% yellow (the white would likely not be very pure but somewhat dirty) There is no better guidance than that.
As for the travesty that vandalises Victory now consider that Andrew Bains the 'curator' is a quantity surveyor who attended a post grad course in marine conservation. He is not a marine historian.
An analysis of Victory's paint was carried out by Lincoln University who found traces of vermilion in the samples and 'assumed' this was a part of the colour mix. So the ship is now painted an extremely unpleasant dirty pink. It goes without saying that Nelson did not choose this colour!!
I think it's likely that traces of red were picked up because at the Battle of Cape St Vincent she was painted red!
She was red while being used as a hospital hulk in the Thames approaches for some years until the loss of one of our first raters meant she was needed for Trafalgar. She was then scraped back and painted with the 'Nelson Checker'-dark grey and pale yellow. Traces of the original colour would be found still on the scraped hull. The inner bulwarks would also be the pale yellow of the carpenter's mix.
Unfortunately Caldercraft (the definitive Victory kit offering) have taken Bains' findings at face value and recommend the 'new' colour without stopping to question the history and the likely cause for confusion.
The old deep yellow ochre previously on Victory was equally inaccurate. That was a replacement for the black and white adopted by the navy in the 1820's when she was fitted with covered headrails etc. The version that nobody builds. We opt for the Trafalgar version....obviously!
I always use Humbrol matt enamels on wood, When fully hardened, 24 hours (though dry to the touch in about half an hour) it can be polished with a light rub with fine steel wool or even a cloth to give the best finish, far superior tp acrylics. It comes in small tins so the 50/50 mix is easily acheived.

 

[Bob Ellis]

Well.

View attachment 498742

Not any more unfortunately. Although it was not accurate at least we in Portsmouth liked it!

 

[Bob Ellis]

Agree, but they have scientifically analysed the original paint from scrapings, and thats what they say is correct.

See my comments. Mr Goodwin was apoplectic when he saw this!!

 

[Bob Ellis]

This is quite possible. The commander could have been using any paint hew they liked. Honestly though the pink above I do not like.

Generally the captain was free to choose, however Nelson dictated that the Trafalgar fleet was a according to a universal colour scheme.

 

[AllanKP69]

An analysis of Victory's paint was carried out by Lincoln University who found traces of vermilion in the samples and 'assumed'

Hi Bob,
Thanks for your post, it is excellent. Do you know when this was done?
Allan

 

[Bob Ellis]

Hi Bob,
Thanks for your post, it is excellent. Do you know when this was done?
Allan

2014

 

[AllanKP69]

This brings up another question. Is there any original planking left on Victory that would have had original paint? From what I could find, much of the orlop and lower gun deck planks may pre date Trafalgar but no other planking. The hull planking is not original therefore paint samples in 2014 may not be indicative of the paint used when she was rebuilt in 1803. Even the guns on Victory today include only 13 of the 104 present at Trafalgar. I skimmed the following and I bet most anyone interested in HMS Victory may enjoy this article from RMG.

HMS Victory - Conservation log | National Museum of the Royal Navy

It is over 250 years since HMS Victory was launched. Given her great age, it is amazing that a large part of her structure is still original. Starboard entrance port – 1923 to present day

www.nmrn.org.uk

Allan

 

[Stuart Little]

This brings up another question. Is there any original planking left on Victory that would have had original paint? From what I could find, much of the orlop and lower gun deck planks may pre date Trafalgar but no other planking. The hull planking is not original therefore paint samples in 2014 may not be indicative of the paint used when she was rebuilt in 1803. Even the guns on Victory today include only 13 of the 104 present at Trafalgar. I skimmed the following and I bet most anyone interested in HMS Victory may enjoy this article from RMG.

HMS Victory - Conservation log | National Museum of the Royal Navy

It is over 250 years since HMS Victory was launched. Given her great age, it is amazing that a large part of her structure is still original. Starboard entrance port – 1923 to present day

www.nmrn.org.uk

Allan

Peter Goodwin would recommend that you follow the ship's carpenter's manifest. 50% white, 50% yellow (the white would likely not be very pure but somewhat dirty) There is no better guidance than that.
As for the travesty that vandalises Victory now consider that Andrew Bains the 'curator' is a quantity surveyor who attended a post grad course in marine conservation. He is not a marine historian.
An analysis of Victory's paint was carried out by Lincoln University who found traces of vermilion in the samples and 'assumed' this was a part of the colour mix. So the ship is now painted an extremely unpleasant dirty pink. It goes without saying that Nelson did not choose this colour!!
I think it's likely that traces of red were picked up because at the Battle of Cape St Vincent she was painted red!
She was red while being used as a hospital hulk in the Thames approaches for some years until the loss of one of our first raters meant she was needed for Trafalgar. She was then scraped back and painted with the 'Nelson Checker'-dark grey and pale yellow. Traces of the original colour would be found still on the scraped hull. The inner bulwarks would also be the pale yellow of the carpenter's mix.
Unfortunately Caldercraft (the definitive Victory kit offering) have taken Bains' findings at face value and recommend the 'new' colour without stopping to question the history and the likely cause for confusion.
The old deep yellow ochre previously on Victory was equally inaccurate. That was a replacement for the black and white adopted by the navy in the 1820's when she was fitted with covered headrails etc. The version that nobody builds. We opt for the Trafalgar version....obviously!
I always use Humbrol matt enamels on wood, When fully hardened, 24 hours (though dry to the touch in about half an hour) it can be polished with a light rub with fine steel wool or even a cloth to give the best finish, far superior tp acrylics. It comes in small tins so the 50/50 mix is easily acheived.

A well-thought-out explanation, Bob, something I've been a believer in. In fact, the illustrations on Jotika's Victory box do show a lighter yellow. I'm off to add some more 'mixing white' to my yellow ochre. I'm still not convinced that the standing rigging (1805) was black, I'm swayed towards dark grey or dark brown???

Stuart

 

[AllanKP69]

Jotika's Victory box do show a lighter yellow

I would not use this as a source for her original colors without collaborating contemporary information. That said, if you like the color they show, why not go for it?

Standing rigging was treated with Stockholm tar (pine tar) which varies in color from brown to dark brown, not black. Coal tar is black but was not used to coat the standing rigging. Look at photos of contemporary models from various museums such as RMG or Preble Hall and you will not see any that have black standing rigging.
Allan

 

[RogerD]

Peter Goodwin would recommend that you follow the ship's carpenter's manifest. 50% white, 50% yellow (the white would likely not be very pure but somewhat dirty) There is no better guidance than that.
As for the travesty that vandalises Victory now consider that Andrew Bains the 'curator' is a quantity surveyor who attended a post grad course in marine conservation. He is not a marine historian.
An analysis of Victory's paint was carried out by Lincoln University who found traces of vermilion in the samples and 'assumed' this was a part of the colour mix. So the ship is now painted an extremely unpleasant dirty pink. It goes without saying that Nelson did not choose this colour!!
I think it's likely that traces of red were picked up because at the Battle of Cape St Vincent she was painted red!
She was red while being used as a hospital hulk in the Thames approaches for some years until the loss of one of our first raters meant she was needed for Trafalgar. She was then scraped back and painted with the 'Nelson Checker'-dark grey and pale yellow. Traces of the original colour would be found still on the scraped hull. The inner bulwarks would also be the pale yellow of the carpenter's mix.
Unfortunately Caldercraft (the definitive Victory kit offering) have taken Bains' findings at face value and recommend the 'new' colour without stopping to question the history and the likely cause for confusion.
The old deep yellow ochre previously on Victory was equally inaccurate. That was a replacement for the black and white adopted by the navy in the 1820's when she was fitted with covered headrails etc. The version that nobody builds. We opt for the Trafalgar version....obviously!
I always use Humbrol matt enamels on wood, When fully hardened, 24 hours (though dry to the touch in about half an hour) it can be polished with a light rub with fine steel wool or even a cloth to give the best finish, far superior tp acrylics. It comes in small tins so the 50/50 mix is easily acheived.

This brings up another question. Is there any original planking left on Victory that would have had original paint? From what I could find, much of the orlop and lower gun deck planks may pre date Trafalgar but no other planking. The hull planking is not original therefore paint samples in 2014 may not be indicative of the paint used when she was rebuilt in 1803. Even the guns on Victory today include only 13 of the 104 present at Trafalgar. I skimmed the following and I bet most anyone interested in HMS Victory may enjoy this article from RMG.

HMS Victory - Conservation log | National Museum of the Royal Navy

It is over 250 years since HMS Victory was launched. Given her great age, it is amazing that a large part of her structure is still original. Starboard entrance port – 1923 to present day

www.nmrn.org.uk

Allan

I agree with Allan, excellent information Bob. As is the link you provided Allan.

 

[Green Highlander]

To Y.T: https://historicdockyard.co.uk/news...-battle-of-trafalgar-colours-after-210-years/

 

[AllanKP69]

Green, Thank you for posting this. As many as 72 layers of paint!!! Remarkable information. This is quite a thorough study and very interesting. THANK YOU again for the link.
Allan

 

[Kevin the Lubber]

Likewise, thank you. I don't doubt the conclusions of the conservation team and imagine there must have been considerable debate, doubting, challenging, checking, double-checking and so on, given the resultant colour change was so radical and, if us lot are anything to go by, unpopular. But conservation isn't a popularity contest and full marks to them for standing by what they found.

Me, I'll still go with yellow ochre. Not least because I have so much of it I ought to be earning a dividend from Vallejo. But I will very gladly veer towards a blackish-grey instead of black, tempting though it is to go with a darkened van dyck brown.

 

[Kurt Konrath]

Being a model railroader as well as ship modeler, one must consider several factors in paint selection and final appearance.

First is the what and when are you modeling, as in fresh dried paint in port after new paint was completed, or a ship that has been at sea for months or years after getting last fresh paint. Sun, wind and water will all effect the look of paint on a ship, train or any other items left out to mother nature.

Is is a glossy finish, or dull weather worn color, regardless of what color that is.

As paint ages, black fade to lighter shades almost grey in some cases, and red fade to lighter shades or light pink, who knows what yellow changes to after some time.

Just look at what happens to the color of copper as a ship sales in the salt water after being plated over the planking.

 

[Stuart Little]

Likewise, thank you. I don't doubt the conclusions of the conservation team and imagine there must have been considerable debate, doubting, challenging, checking, double-checking and so on, given the resultant colour change was so radical and, if us lot are anything to go by, unpopular. But conservation isn't a popularity contest and full marks to them for standing by what they found.

Me, I'll still go with yellow ochre. Not least because I have so much of it I ought to be earning a dividend from Vallejo. But I will very gladly veer towards a blackish-grey instead of black, tempting though it is to go with a darkened van dyck brown.

I'm with you on that, Kevin, I'm not convinced of the 'new' terracotta.

 

[Bob Ellis]

A well-thought-out explanation, Bob, something I've been a believer in. In fact, the illustrations on Jotika's Victory box do show a lighter yellow. I'm off to add some more 'mixing white' to my yellow ochre. I'm still not convinced that the standing rigging (1805) was black, I'm swayed towards dark grey or dark brown???

Stuart

The Ryal Navy had the sole trade agrreement with Stocholm tar producers in Sweden. Depending on the region the tar was obtained the colour varied from black to honey brown. So anything is correct as long as it's at least a shade darker than the running rigging. Having built a cutter with minimal colour difference in retrospect I would prefer a more noticeable contrast. If I don't use purcased black rigging line I would go for a dark brown. But it's personal taste, nothing is incorrect, including black.

 

[Bob Ellis]

Being a model railroader as well as ship modeler, one must consider several factors in paint selection and final appearance.

First is the what and when are you modeling, as in fresh dried paint in port after new paint was completed, or a ship that has been at sea for months or years after getting last fresh paint. Sun, wind and water will all effect the look of paint on a ship, train or any other items left out to mother nature.

Is is a glossy finish, or dull weather worn color, regardless of what color that is.

As paint ages, black fade to lighter shades almost grey in some cases, and red fade to lighter shades or light pink, who knows what yellow changes to after some time.

Just look at what happens to the color of copper as a ship sales in the salt water after being plated over the planking.

Dark grey was Nelson's choice, as was the 'lemon'. RN ships were constantly repaintd. Example, when entering port after a time spent at sea. It was important that you didn't look like a 'scrub' who didn't take pride in his ship!
Also, see Tom Lauria's video on the 'Compelling Impression of scale'. Viewed from 100 yards away aerial perspective, the atmospheric dilution of light, will make black appear grey. Looking at a scale model is the equivalent of viewing from distance, ie. looking at a ship at it's full length. Grey adds a realistic impression. It follows, of course, that all colours should be muted thus. Hence the visual 'jolt' when we see builds with a vivid yellow and clack colour scheme. A couple of the Victory kit offerings supply overly bright colours. They don't look good!
With regard to gloss, it doesn't scale so it will never look realistic.
Aging of copper is different chemistry!

 

[Roger Pellett]

US Navy specifications of the World War 2 era included instructions, not necessarily exact formulas for mixing paints.

So, what has this got to do with HMS Victory?

Until recent times exact color matching was impossible. Warships would have carried basic color pigments to be mixed as needed. The pigments themselves were made from naturally occurring colors that varied, and mixing was anything but scientific. Even today, some paint colors can vary. Back in my working days, industrial specifications specified Red Oxide Primer as a coating for shop fabricated piping assemblies shipped to the field construction site. The paint used in our Marietta, Ohio shop was a dull brown-red. The paint used in our Duluth, MN shop was almost a bright red. Both were Red Oxide Primer.

The search for the exact HMS Victory color is futile.

Roger

 

[Bob Ellis]

US Navy specifications of the World War 2 era included instructions, not necessarily exact formulas for mixing paints.

So, what has this got to do with HMS Victory?

Until recent times exact color matching was impossible. Warships would have carried basic color pigments to be mixed as needed. The pigments themselves were made from naturally occurring colors that varied, and mixing was anything but scientific. Even today, some paint colors can vary. Back in my working days, industrial specifications specified Red Oxide Primer as a coating for shop fabricated piping assemblies shipped to the field construction site. The paint used in our Marietta, Ohio shop was a dull brown-red. The paint used in our Duluth, MN shop was almost a bright red. Both were Red Oxide Primer.

The search for the exact HMS Victory color is futile.

Roger

Nothing is exact, but only resistance is futile!!