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Question: Why do some people feel model ship building needs a wider audience?

Because it is quite literally a dying art form. The majority of people engaged in this hobby are aging out of it. I’m a young’un at almost 52, and I’m now in what Bill Burr hilariously dubbed “the drop-dead years.” If I can make it to 62, I should live another 15. What the relative quality of those years might be is anyone’s guess. I hope to be doing my best work in that time.

It is also enlightening, at times, to see what other people have come up with to solve manufacturing deficiencies with kits, or to see for the first time, those builders that have gone out on a limb and crafted an entirely new and unexplored vessel. It all broadens one’s perspective on what is possible, while de-mystifying the more complex seeming aspects of the hobby.
 
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Hmmm,

I've just come across this thread, whilst in procrastination mode from another task.

I know I'm late to the discussion, and it is fascinating to read the different views, and my view is maybe simple, but I find that simple is good.
The clue is in the name 'Ships of Scale'

I'm not interested in expanding the hobby, or making/denying commercial interests. I came here because I have an interest in making a scaled down version of an actual ship. A sailing ship - one made from timber and with hundreds of lines. I have some skills and abilities to produce wooden parts, and it was not until I came across Harold Underhill's books on making models from line drawings and timber that I really gave the 'how' much thought.

If your aim is to produce a scale model, then gradually you can become sucked into the bottomless well that calls for research on the original, or maybe on the era to produce deck fitting that could have been fitted. Even the rigging styles changed over time.
So years can go by, and models that you turn out are of increasing accuracy. Suddenly you are called a scratch builder because the necessary short cuts in a production kit that allow a sensible price point and achievable skill level become unacceptable. I have commented here a couple of times about building frames rather than the kit fashion for bulkheads and double planking. I have done that. I wasn't happy though, when I had finished, and I would prefer to put in the time and the quality control to get an accurate model of the ship. I'll never quite manage it of course. You can't scale everything down because the laws of physics always apply, and something like a 1/96th scale four inches is is 0.0417 inches, which becomes finer than wood grain, even allowing for use of boxwood.

The one thing I am in total agreement with, which someone said above, is that criticism should be banned. Many people enjoy the production of 'something' and gain huge pleasure and calm from having made a model boat. These endeavours are to be praised and supported. Equally, when asked for, or just offering, an opinion, it would be polite to comment on inaccuracies in a positive way. "What a good model - you might like to try fitting the planks even more like the originals if you were to shape them at the end." rather than "the planking is all wrong" criticism and critique are different things, there is always something that can be given praise, and encourages the builder (or kit producer)

and at a macro level, turning out a generation of model making youngsters would be better for mankind than turning out screen junkies, so bring on the kits that lead people to use their time productively, and stay with a discussion forum that values positive sharing of experience and knowledge. Civilised discussion is always welcome. Politicians should come here and learn.

Jim
 
I always judged my models by the amount they sold for at auction. That may have made me mercenary, but certainly not elitist, because it was only occasionally that I got decent prices. I know that a lot of shipmodellers think it a mortal sin to sell their models for money. But one has got to live. In late 1992, after 31 years at sea, it was all getting too much for me, and I gave up the rat-race to become self-employed as a ship modelmaker,and maritime historian. Even recently, I seldom achieved the minimum price per hour at model shipbuilding, but writing was far more successful with very high hourly rates, but all the model shipbuilding journals have practically gone now, so another door closed, but at 81, I guess it doesn't really matter.
I always thought of myself as "the poor man's model shipbuilder," because I could produce reasonable models in a short space of time at very low prices. But a number of people took advantage of me over the years, but I took it all on the chin - better than the rat race!
Well, that was entirely depressing…..if not entirely accurate.
 
Interesting discussion. For me the issue is keeping the hobby alive by introducing new enthusiasts. Kits or scratch…whichever captures the imagination of new modelers. I am a kit builder. We need new modelers to keep the hobby alive.
 
Well, that was entirely depressing…..if not entirely accurate.
Why was it depressing? And why was it not entirely accurate? It never depressed me, and I just accepted low prices in the same way I accepted ridiculously high prices at auctions. The last model I sold, I told my client how much it was, and he actually complained it was not high enough. I just said that was what I was asking for it, and if he wanted to pay more, I would be grateful. He paid me 1 1/2 times more! (on top of my asking price). I sold this one privately in the late 1990s for £400. It showed up years later in a London auction house where it sold for just over £3,800. That didn't bother me either!

Clan Mactaggart (Large).JPG
 
I think this issue is much wider than just the business of ship modelling. My concern is that young people today are more interested in playing with their mobile telephones or conducting games on their computers than in making something. Creating an artifact, whether is be a piece of furniture, a model or a painting has great theraputic value and if in so doing it helps to keep young people away from some of the madness on the internet or on social media then it serves a really useful purpose. The young need some sort of stimulant to get them onto the track of creativity and this is largely a matter that the eductional system needs to address.

Just another thought, the builder of a ship model kit is no longer the model maker. The model maker is the kit designer and the person that buys the kit is the model assembler. Nevertheless to assemble a good quality still provides tremendous satisfaction and a sense of achievement.
 
An Alternative point of view.

In 1981 I purchased the plans published by the Solomon Island Model Boat Club, SIMBC. The plans were for a 48” Skipjack with Radio Controls.

A Skipjack is a historic boat and primarily seen on the Chesapeake Bay. It was a work boat used to harvest oysters from shallow area. These were built locally and from a basic formula. The skipjack’s size was determined by the length of the log used to create the keel.

Locally the watermen would have Skipjack races amongst the few remaining historic boats.

I had a sailboat on the Chesapeake for 10 years. One summer we watched the Skipjack races at the Calvert Museum. That is how I became enamored by the lore of these sailing boats. I became acquainted with the SIMBC, joined the club and purchased the plans and instructions (typed and mimeographed). The SIMBC would install Radio Controls and race them as a club event.

I never got around to building the 48” model - life got in the way at the time. However, I kept the plans. Several years ago I got them out with the intention of building the model. I had some experience building model airplanes from kits, but I realized that I did not know how to start. I turned to the Internet, found sources, various build logs and the “Ships of Scale”.

All of these sources educated me on what I did not know. Notes on builds and forums from “real scale builders” helped me, although there were no mentions of Skipjacks or Radio Controled boats.

I thank you for the education. I was on a mission to build this Skipjack so I was not put off by the exclusion of my particular interest.

My point is, maybe you should expand your focus to include model builders who want to have boats built for fun, with Radio Controls, rather than built specifically for Show. Who knows, my next build might be a Ship of Scale.
 
The young need some sort of stimulant to get them onto the track of creativity

oh but they are creative just not what the old folks think as "creating" things. My grandsons can create from scratch that is they designed it and created it in cyber space, built a 3d model and animated it so it actually moved.

try to take an original set of drawings of a steam engine built in 1860 draft it in CAD, create a working 3D model with animation that is so creative it is beyond me. Then take it to the limits and 3D print it out, assemble it and watch it work. kids can do it can you?

my grandsons created the design, fabricated parts by 3Dprinted and CNC machined a robot and entered in national robotic competition and these were high school kids. if that is not creative i don't know what is. Buy the way it is the national "competition" that motivated and inspired those kids.
 
life runs backwards it took me years to learn how to and then develop the skills to scratch build a model of a ship. now that i know how and have the skills and tools i got too old and running out of time Here comes 80 better move fast
 
The young need some sort of stimulant to get them onto the track of creativity

oh but they are creative just not what the old folks think as "creating" things. My grandsons can create from scratch that is they designed it and created it in cyber space, built a 3d model and animated it so it actually moved.

try to take an original set of drawings of a steam engine built in 1860 draft it in CAD, create a working 3D model with animation that is so creative it is beyond me. Then take it to the limits and 3D print it out, assemble it and watch it work. kids can do it can you?

my grandsons created the design, fabricated parts by 3Dprinted and CNC machined a robot and entered in national robotic competition and these were high school kids. if that is not creative i don't know what is. Buy the way it is the national "competition" that motivated and inspired those kids.
I would imagine that to do something like you say, the young "high school kids" would have to obtain access to CAD, and learn how to use it, expensive and time consuming! Then, they would have to have an expensive computer to build the virtual engine. They would then need to make, or obtain a 3D printer capable of printing all the parts that they could assemble to complete the project. All this would probably take vast amounts of time, dedication and cash.
Considering that model shipbuilding is mainly just a hobby, the wealthy can purchase a good kit for a few hundred dollars, or the relatively poor schoolboy (such as I was in the 1950s) could scratchbuild for next to nothing. I doubt if many would have the equipment, money, skills and patience to design and build a robot. As we are talking about model shipbuilding, I feel that these "superhuman" feats of computer, 3D design and construction, can only be enjoyed by a minority. Below: Me (Shipbuilder), back in 1952 - managing with a minimum of tools and materials. Just could not afford much in those far-off days - but it was most enjoyable, nevertheless -

My first workbench 1952.jpg
 
The competitive robot programs in American High Schools are a huge deal. What they accomplish is amazing. The better organized teams have kids working in designated roles just like a real business ; Project Managers, CAD Drafters, Assemblers, etc. It offers a sense of community for those not involved in the usual high school sports. Relative to Bob’s comment, the team is able to take advantage of the schools resources. The teams may also raise money as a group so that everyone can participate.

I do wish that more school faculty would realize that high school robotics is not an end in itself. Our country needs engineers and kids on these robot teams are natural candidates IF the guidance department makes sure that while participating in robotics, they also are taking the necessary math and science courses to be admitted to an engineering school.

Roger
 
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I am fairly new to this forum, but have always been interested in the sea and ships. With a background in engineering (and having worked in the Naval Nuclear program) I have always been drawn to ships and their construction. This overlayed with an interest in maritime history drew me to model shipbuilding. From a very selfish point of view, I hope the hobby expands widely. I have learned so much from this forum. The more people involved, the more resources from which to draw. Keep expanding!
 
The competitive robot programs in American High Schools are a huge deal. What they accomplish is amazing. The better organized teams have kids working in designated roles just like a real business ; Project Managers, CAD Drafters, Assemblers, etc. It offers a sense of community for those not involved in the usual high school sports. Relative to Bob’s comment, the team is able to take advantage of the schools resources. The teams may also raise money as a group so that everyone can participate.

I do wish that more school faculty would realize that high school robotics is not an end in itself. Our country needs engineers and kids on these robot teams are natural candidates IF the guidance department makes sure that while participating in robotics, they also are taking the necessary math and science courses to be admitted to an engineering school.

Roger
I knew that they would be using college facilities, but that takes it out of "hobby" mode, because when they get home, they cannot do it because of lack of all the expensive equipment!
To me, a hobby is what I can do myself without any external help. Today, I received an offer from a kit supplier (who I have never dealt with), offering me a kit for a trawler that has been reduced from £743 to £437! But with very few tools, I can build one myself for next to nothing! - That is what I call a hobby.
As you can see, my methods are not exactly "Craftsman" quality, but the end result looks pretty good. My last school report on woodwork was "poor to moderate," and I never got out of the first grade!



Margaret Wicks.jpg

Margaret Wicks 1.jpg
 
The competitive robot programs in American High Schools are a huge deal. What they accomplish is amazing.

that is for sure a 15 year old kid can build a combat robot before they can drive a car. Well in high school they are not built for combat that is the big time robot fighting time you see on TV.


The better organized teams have kids working in designated roles just like a real business ; Project Managers, CAD Drafters, Assemblers, etc. It offers a sense of community for those not involved in the usual high school sports. Relative to Bob’s comment, the team is able to take advantage of the schools resources. The teams may also raise money as a group so that everyone can participate.

I do wish that more school faculty would realize that high school robotics is not an end in itself. Our country needs engineers and kids on these robot teams are natural candidates IF the guidance department makes sure that while participating in robotics, they also are taking the necessary math and science courses to be admitted to an engineering school.


to begin with the computer and robotics labs replaced the old shop classes when i was in high school. So these kids are using school resources to learn.
My daughter is a teacher and yes the schools do realize giving students the opportunity to explore computer science and robotics may indeed lead to bigger and better things. all three grandsons now college grads. One is a civil engineer, another bio-robotics designing prosteticts, the third is computer science and CNC engineering. Those high school classes sparked a future path.

I would imagine that to do something like you say, the young "high school kids" would have to obtain access to CAD, and learn how to use it, expensive and time consuming! Then, they would have to have an expensive computer to build the virtual engine. They would then need to make, or obtain a 3D printer capable of printing all the parts that they could assemble to complete the project. All this would probably take vast amounts of time, dedication and cash.

not really a desk top computer is quite affordable when my grandsons were in high School all three had a computer in their room, 3d printers are not that expensive. As far as software yes they can get very expensive but there are also free software available as well as student discounts.
like any interest you build up your resources over time. All three learned how to take apart a computer and up grade it, high school stuff.
a sign of the times
a grandson asked for a set of ship plans i asked really why? he said he wanted to build a ship model. Wow ya sure here is a typical set of ship plans. two months later he says hey grandpop i finished that ship model. great bring it over. What did he bring me? a thumb drive well! ok
there it was all framed up rendered and a perfect 3D model i could go aboard walk the decks go below deck look at all the finer and finer details. time and dedication computer science applied to model ship building.
 
Now do not get me wrong, I do appreciate the fact that everyone has determination, dedication and is passionate enough to start building whatever it may be. I also understand that everyone has different aptitudes, aspirations and limitations. At the same time, I also believe the common modeler enters the hobby by being motivated by whatever it is that has inspired him or her.

Let us use the alphabet as a scale…. Although I understand if some may get confused by it…

My main point of focus about partaking in this hobby is and has always been the fact than if someone is inspired by this
A)
Ship Models .jpg
Image cedit: the Us Naval Academy Museum

Or this
B)
Clan Mactaggart (Large).JPG
Image credit: shipbuilder (SOS community)

and I sincerely believe many of us do strive if not perfection, at least come as close to it: Given ones determination, dedication, passion, aptitude (skills), aspiration and limitations.

All the while we may end up with this (extreme)
Y)
Hakop-OP-Anime-Action-Figures-Shanks-Pirate-Ship-PVC-Model-Toy-Perfect-Details-Figurine-for-C...webp

or this
Z)
s-l1600.jpg

and everything in between: C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X.

Much of the difference resides in the attributes listed above: but skill and craftsmanship are a big part of it.

As someone pointed it out, the secret lies in the name of the hobby we chose: model ship building or scale model ship building, for us or most it is to be as close (figuratively) to what I suspect, is the representation of what has inspired us in the first place: whether it was the real ship or a model of it, we strive for the look and feeling of reality.

Now we may All agree or on the premise of increasing the interest in the hobby, getting more members in for whatever reason we may have. The fact remains that we are typically inspired by A or B, and although we strive for those, most are happy to end-up within the middle of the alphabet; ranging from J to O on the scale. There is nothing wrong with that and if that goal is not attained no one belittles the other for not achieving it.

I doubt any of us are inspired by Y or Z, but should it be the case, one will certainly not end-up producing an A or B.

Personally, I do not wish to convince anyone that “perfectionism” (and I use the term very lightly) is the only way. But striving for it, or something closer to it, at all levels is part of our self-development, even if we never achieve it. And at the same time I do understand that everyone have their own goals, athough I am also under the assumption / understanding that most widh for better than they actually do.

Being creative or imaginative to build the model is required but, as far as the final look of the object produced, a replica, these two concepts do not or should not apply.

Again, do I expect everyone to attain that level? … Absolutely not ...
Motivating though practice, showing good craftsmanship is only as limiting as someone makes it to be. We all have limits.

Do I expect every model to be perfect? Absolutely not….

On the other end, I do wish that people who show their work in order for others to learn from it, be conscious of their limitations in education value, while I sincerely believe one can learn from mistakes, his her own mistakes, as it is the nature of the hobby. But, most post progress are intended for self-satisfaction, gratification. It is great, to see what people do, but it is surely not intended as a tool used to inspire, motivate and educate others. There is of course the idea that motivation and education occurs from the bottom up, and it may well be for some. But typically, whatever the discipline is, motivation, inspiration and education occur from the top down.

Getting more people in the hobby is a good thing, but I do not agree on saying “it will help me be better at what I do” because the masses are not producing anything close to upper level results: the inspiring model. What really inspires, motivates a modeler is not necessarily greatness, but something closer to it than what the average modeler achieves. Labeling people who may have "better" skills, people who strive for it, or point out the needs the masses to pay attention, as elitists is ill-placed.

I do get that more and more people get their motivation from average people because we certainly have more access to them, but it does not mean that the ones striving for the top tier belittle everyone within the “lower level" of achievement.

Our society has made it more than acceptable to model ourselves from the masses while these masses are putting “influencers” on pedestals. We often live our life idolizing people, we put them on pedestals: people who do not necessarily deserve to be there, except for their marketing skills. Many dress like then, eat like them, act like them, think, like them, partake in activities they partake in, etc…. It seems like we look up to these people for any and all reasons, so why not get inspired by the best in our craft.

I guess, the masses have caught on to the marketing trend so that each individual, community as a whole, may be recognized and marketed as “experts” which not everyone is.

As someone said earlier, inspiration, motivation to join a group in any activity, is by presenting / offering greatness or at least some level of it; again, knowing that not everyone will achieve it…

As far as model ship is concerned, the art is in making the ship, not the resulting beautiful ship itself.


ART:
Quote
"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the general concept of the arts.
Art is a diverse range of cultural activity centered around works utilizing creative or imaginative talents, which are expected to evoke a worthwhile experience, generally through an expression of emotional power, conceptual ideas, technical proficiency, and/or beauty.

There is no generally agreed definition of what constitutes art, and its interpretation has varied greatly throughout history and across cultures. In the Western tradition, the three classical branches of visual art are painting, sculpture, and architecture. Theatre, dance, and other performing arts, as well as literature, music, film and other media such as interactive media, are included in a broader definition of "the arts". Until the 17th century, art referred to any skill or mastery and was not differentiated from crafts or sciences. In modern usage after the 17th century, where aesthetic considerations are paramount, the fine arts are separated and distinguished from acquired skills in general, such as the decorative or applied arts."
The nature of art and related concepts, such as creativity and interpretation, are explored in a branch of philosophy known as aesthetics. The resulting artworks are studied in the professional fields of art criticism and the history of art."
End quote


In the end, the fundamental reason for actively recruiting more modelers is good in intention.
Everyone has a role in it. This said, it is best left for organizations, businesses to do it for their own reasons as they have the opportunity to reach more people.

A individual modeler wanting to raise awareness in the hobby, should be doing so by presenting the values as to what model ship is and represent for him / her. Not do so because they believe their work is worthy enough to motivate others. The final product is only an illustration of what can be achieved following one’s own dedication, passion, skill, etc.

I also understant that a wide ranging venue such as this forum, is suppose to appeal to ALL. The goal is always to increase the membership at large so that more people join in here.

And my friends, this is what I believe.

Happy modeling.
G
 
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To me, that is not model shipbuilding. It is no doubt very clever but it sure does sound boring, and I wonder how accurate they can get the inside of a ship from a plan, because they never show the full details of furnishings. This was the bridge of an old collier I was in - how could a computer figure out all that lot, when the plans did not go into such detail?



cimputerCollier Wandsworth 1962.jpg
 
Bob (Shipbuilder’s) post reflects exactly my thoughts about my PERSONAL ship model building. I grew in a house where if I wanted something I was encouraged to build it. Although this resulted in some potentially hazardous activities down in the basement it had a profound and positive effect on the rest of my life.

Despite posts to the contrary, while sitting around the campfire with my tribe in our cave I have not been trying to restrict others from defining model ship building as they see fit.

Roger
 
I think what matters most is personal satisfaction. That's going to be purely a matter of individual standards. I was 10 years old when I built my first model ship - a plastic kit of the USS Arizona. I think I got more glue on my fingers than on the parts. But I was wildly thrilled with the finished product, even with all of its flaws. All I can say is that my second ship was better than the first, and so on. And I'm still building and restoring model ships, 67 years later. Everybody starts somewhere, and gets as far as they get. But all effort should be lauded, and support offered. My 2 cents.
 
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