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Knots

HughLo

HughLo

Joined
Apr 8, 2023
Messages
278
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Location
Lakewood, Colorado
I did some quick searches on the site, but searching for “knots” brings up way too many results.

I’ve seen a few mock ups of various knots in museums and such, but was wondering if anyone has a good one that includes the name(s) of each knot plus the more common places each knot is used.

Here’s a picture I took from the Buque Museo Fragata A.R.A. "Presidente Sarmiento" in Buenos Aires Argentina. It has a bunch of knots, but I didn’t capture the details plus they were in Spanish.

IMG_1410.jpeg
 
While there are lots of books on knot tying, there are only two recognized "Bibles" on knots and fancy ropework. One is the aforementioned The Ashley Book of Knots ("Ashleys.") The other, less well-known popularly, is The Encyclopedia of Knots and Fancy Rope Work, by Raoul Graumont and John Hensel. Ashley's claims to contain over 3,900 different knots on 619 pages. The 704 page Encyclopedia by Graumont and Hensel, claims to contain more than 3,600 knots described and illustrated in 348 full-page plates. Both works claim to contain every knot known to man, but only the Encyclopedia seems to have been updated in multiple editions which contain newly invented knots. The actual number of knots in each book is really of no moment because both fully cover any practical knot anybody would ever have occasion to use. One other distinction between the two, as reflected in their titles, is that Ashley's focuses primarily on knots, while the Encyclopedia focuses not only on knots, but also "fancy ropework," which is to say ornamental knot tying. If you are interested in the sort of fancywork that's on the cover of the Dictionary (below,) inside that book is where to find it.

In my opinion, Ashley's is the more entertaining book, especially for a reader new to the subject. Its hand-drawn pictures and diagrams are nicely done and clearly convey each knot. The Encyclopedia has photographs, not drawings of the knots it contains, and how to tie the knots is in many cases less obvious in the Encyclopedia. This difference between the two is because Ashley's is written for a general audience, while the Encyclopedia is a more traditionally styled academic work (published by Cornell University, IIRC.) The biggest difference between the two books is that Ashley organizes its listings of knots into categories based on the various trades in which the knots are generally used. The Encyclopedia, on the other hand, organizes its listings into categories based on the mechanical characteristics of each knot, e.g. "knots," "hitches," "bends," etc. Ashley's shows the knot by name and how to tie it. The Encyclopedia shows the basic type of knot and then, progressively, all the knot variations based on that basic knot. Unlike Ashley's it doesn't necessarily explain thereafter how to tie each derivative knot individually, rather assuming the reader has already mastered the underlying basic knot before tackling its further development.

Because of the differences in their organization, both books have their advantages and for this reason both books are very much worth adding to your library. You can look up a single knot and how to tie it in Ashley's, but, a study of the Encyclopedia will teach a progression of knots, etc., one building upon another, based on how the rope works to do the job. If knots were a language, Ashley's would be the "conversational phrase book," and the Encyclopedia would be the grammar and vocabulary textbook.


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Thanks for all the info so far. Both books look great, but are probably more than Im currently looking for.

Still being new (I still haven’t tackled my first rigging although I’m getting close), I don’t know what knot or hitch to use in a given situation. For example, on my Buccaneer I decided to rig the cannons, something I had not yet done, and something not covered in OcCre’s instructions. I looked thru a number of build logs as well as some google searches, and found the basics, or at least enough for me to decide where rope should go and be mounted/connected.

With the rope(s) in place, I had to decide what type of knot to use. For that I reached out to a friend and followed his recommendation.
IMG_0331.jpeg
This is but one example of what I’m looking for.

Is there a list of the top knots used in ship modeling and where they are commonly used?
 
HughLo said:
Thanks for all the info so far. Both books look great, but are probably more than Im currently looking for.

Still being new (I still haven’t tackled my first rigging although I’m getting close), I don’t know what knot or hitch to use in a given situation. For example, on my Buccaneer I decided to rig the cannons, something I had not yet done, and something not covered in OcCre’s instructions. I looked thru a number of build logs as well as some google searches, and found the basics, or at least enough for me to decide where rope should go and be mounted/connected.

With the rope(s) in place, I had to decide what type of knot to use. For that I reached out to a friend and followed his recommendation.
View attachment 527651
This is but one example of what I’m looking for.

Is there a list of the top knots used in ship modeling and where they are commonly used?
Click to expand...
Many times we can't use a scale knot. It would be too bulky and not look correct.
 
HughLo said:
Is there a list of the top knots used in ship modeling and where they are commonly used?
Click to expand...
Certainly you need to be proficient with half hitches (usually two), clove hitches, reef knots, and bowlines. These are the same knots you use when sailing a real boat. Other members of the forum will likely add to this list.

But once again we delve into issues of scale. As Corsair wrote in post #8: "Many times we can't use a scale knot. It would be too bulky and not look correct."
What you can tie at 1:12 is very different from what you can tie at 1:96. The decision is sometimes between constructing something the way it was done on the actual vessel or constructing it in a way that looks right, that is, the way a vessel would look at 100 feet or 100 yards, which is what your brain sees when you look at a model. In the case of marlinspike seamanship, some knots are easy to replicate at reasonable scales, for example clove hitches on ratlines. Others are very difficult, for example eye splices. At larger scales it is possible, but fiddly, to make an actual eye splice. At smaller scales one has to resort to a marline hitch or a whipped eye or just a bit of glue. Fair winds!
 
AndyA said:
Certainly you need to be proficient with half hitches (usually two), clove hitches, reef knots, and bowlines. These are the same knots you use when sailing a real boat. Other members of the forum will likely add to this list.

But once again we delve into issues of scale. As Corsair wrote in post #8: "Many times we can't use a scale knot. It would be too bulky and not look correct."
What you can tie at 1:12 is very different from what you can tie at 1:96. The decision is sometimes between constructing something the way it was done on the actual vessel or constructing it in a way that looks right, that is, the way a vessel would look at 100 feet or 100 yards, which is what your brain sees when you look at a model. In the case of marlinspike seamanship, some knots are easy to replicate at reasonable scales, for example clove hitches on ratlines. Others are very difficult, for example eye splices. At larger scales it is possible, but fiddly, to make an actual eye splice. At smaller scales one has to resort to a marline hitch or a whipped eye or just a bit of glue. Fair winds!
Click to expand...
Thanks for starting the list. So far the ships I’m working on are 1:64 and 1:100.

Half hitches (usually two)
Clove hitches
Reef knots
Bowlines
Marline hitch
Whipped eye
 
HughLo said:
Exactly… and for this newbie that’s what I’m looking for… Let’s say the top ten and their most common uses.
Click to expand...
"Experience starts when you begin. Scale rigging doesn't require an extensive knowledge of knot tying. If you can tie your shoes, you're half way there. :D Rely on your research library (probably the most essential "tool" of the ship modeler) for what you're trying to replicate in scale and take it from there. If you can tie a square knot, a clove hitch, a half-hitch and a figure-eight knot, you should be most of the way there. As you've already figured out, a picture of what you are trying to portray in miniature is worth a thousand words.

Check out the "books" section in this forum and you'll see what books others have found helpful. There are two approaches to building a reference library. The first is to start with the decent "beginners' books" and the other is to buy what I call the "Bibles," the last word on the subject. The decent "beginners's books can be quite good, but some are a complete waste of money, as well. Use caution when considering any book with a title like "...for Beginners," or "... made easy." ;) Most of the books are available used at substantially reduced prices on the internet. I have found over many decades and dollars that I end up buying and using the "Bibles" after buying the "beginners' books," so, while the "beginners' books" served their purposes at the time, the "Bibles," while generally more expensive to purchase, even used, would have been more economical in the long run.

If you want a book recommendation, my nominees for the "good stuff" in the rigging and knot tying category would be:

The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War by James Lees
https://www.amazon.com/Masting-Rigging-English-Ships-1625-1860/dp/0870219480

The Ashley Book of Knots by Clifford W. Ashley
https://www.amazon.com/Ashley-Book-...phy=88716&hvtargid=pla-4583657830634355&psc=1

Masting and Rigging: The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier by Harold A. Underhill
https://www.amazon.com/Masting-Rigging-Clipper-Ocean-Carrier/dp/0851741738/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=1340305245152425&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.YawdD3nogdeg_8qAhfc3zVEZZm_N7ePXTTk7r3hb3jgpC_EnFrIZnelhqvBoAuy6Njqb5qGaUyC14Iqi9lP-uHjlL4vYkD7wBRleG6SY_fUiTtD1_TnSNYNUCVliEjEH3VH0m34RqIHy6Clqzqm3THgEZuLvh7wEMgoKw_xusW81IImO0vVwQSRaE6oWcecCIPxvBFiN_emKsLmePxl4nBK-UONRTCtjU27okSeU6Qs.VyWL7GvijJJVf_ypLokDVCu3q4K6Ci1qHsamGTOWbCU&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83769400136465&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=88716&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=p&hvtargid=kwd-83769436931778:loc-190&hydadcr=22535_13531115&keywords=harold+underhill&mcid=82861c17e6f73805b1652f18707fc5da&msclkid=f8690a81418d11eb729c62db48e78ee2&qid=1750731146&sr=8-1

Plank-on-Frame Models and Scale Masting and Rigging (2 Volume set) by Harold A. Underhill
https://www.amazon.com/Plank-Frame-Models-Masting-Rigging/dp/B000KF4ATC/ref=sr_1_4?adgrpid=1340305245152425&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.YawdD3nogdeg_8qAhfc3zVEZZm_N7ePXTTk7r3hb3jgpC_EnFrIZnelhqvBoAuy6Njqb5qGaUyC14Iqi9lP-uHjlL4vYkD7wBRleG6SY_fUiTtD1_TnSNYNUCVliEjEH3VH0m34RqIHy6Clqzqm3THgEZuLvh7wEMgoKw_xusW81IImO0vVwQSRaE6oWcecCIPxvBFiN_emKsLmePxl4nBK-UONRTCtjU27okSeU6Qs.VyWL7GvijJJVf_ypLokDVCu3q4K6Ci1qHsamGTOWbCU&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83769400136465&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=88716&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=p&hvtargid=kwd-83769436931778:loc-190&hydadcr=22535_13531115&keywords=harold+underhill&mcid=82861c17e6f73805b1652f18707fc5da&msclkid=f8690a81418d11eb729c62db48e78ee2&qid=1750731146&sr=8-4

Now, the real issue with rigging knots is how to tie them in small spaces where fingers don't reach. Here's a secret I learned from briefly dating a micro-surgeon once upon a time. (She being now memorable for this alone.) Micro-surgeons (and dentists) are trained to master many of the tools and skills essential to ship modeling. With respect to rigging, search YouTube for "surgical instrument knot tying." You will find many videos there posted by medical schools for use in teaching these skills. You will see how to tie knots in otherwise inaccessible tiny spaces using needle clamp forceps, ear polypus forceps, tweezers, Castorviejo micro-scissors and the like. Buy the instruments on eBay. (That's the cheapest source.) Learn the tools and techniques surgeons use to tie micro-sutures. It will change your ship modeling life! Redface

In case anybody's wondering, this is an eight-inch ear polypus forcep. They come in different lengths. They are for working inside the human ear canal, but they are also great for reaching across a model ship's deck to belay to a belaying pin! About $20.00 USD.

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