Advice for La Toulannaise- Corel 1:75

[Korsan]

Ahoy
A
According to the plans of Corel, part of the rail above the cannon port seems to be interrupted and the panel aruond the hole consists of 2 parts (attachments)
Is the rail part above the cannon foldable and this 2 pieces of the cannonhole-port removable to increase the shooting angle of the cannon. Can it be a supplamentry
entrance to the deck.Do all the cannon ports have that foldable system by Toulannaise
Thanks in advance for your kind responds

 

[Namabiiru]

That’s very interesting question. I am stumped.

What I also find interesting is the first drawing that appears to show a gun port directly over what appears to be the channels. That would have them shooting their own shrouds off.

 

[Korsan]

ı have found this version in internt.only one port is foldable

 

[Korsan]

ı have found this version in internt.only one port is foldable

View attachment 539250

Correction: all ports are poldable

 

[Korsan]

That’s very interesting question. I am stumped.

What I also find interesting is the first drawing that appears to show a gun port directly over what appears to be the channels. That would have them shooting their own shrouds off

 

[Korsan]

By the final plan the shrouds are not dangered thru cannon shots

 

[Korsan]

By the final plan the shrouds are not dangered thru cannon shots

 

[Korsan]

By the final plan the shrouds are not dangered thru cannon shots

That’s very interesting question. I am stumped.

What I also find interesting is the first drawing that appears to show a gun port directly over what appears to be the channels. That would have them shooting their own shrouds off.

By the final plan the shrouds are not dangered thru cannon shots . Further
İnstead of the dead eyes for the shrouds a different designed metallic artifact is given in the kit

 

[iutar]

Model of La Toulonnaise at the Musée de la Marine in Paris.

 

[Maxipoo]

Hullo!
Yes the rails above all the gun ports can be folded, as shown in the plan in the notice from the AAMM (Association des Amis du Musée de la Marine - Association of Friends of the Maritime Museum) and the picture above.

And you know what? I have forgotten thid hinges on my model. Get back to your workbench, mate!

By this time, turnbuckles have replaced deadeyes as can been seen on the plans and on a picture I took a long time ago…

By the way, as of 2023 the Toulonnaise was in the Naval Museum in Toulon while the museum in Paris was refurbished. Is she back in Paris? It was not a year ago. I’ll check soon.

 

[Korsan]

Model of La Toulonnaise at the Musée de la Marine in Paris.

View attachment 539273

Thank you for the precious info so i will build all the gun ports with interrupted foldable rail

Hello!
Yes the rails above all the gun ports can be folded, as shown in the plan in the notice from the AAMM (Association des Amis du Musée de la Marine - Association of Friends of the Maritime Museum) and the picture above.

And you know what? I have forgotten thid hinges on my model. Get back to your workbench, mate!

By this time, turnbuckles have replaced deadeyes as can been seen on the plans and on a picture I took a long time ago…

By the way, as of 2023 the Toulonnaise was in the Naval Museum in Toulon while the museum in Paris was refurbished. Is she back in Paris? It was not a year ago. I’ll check soon.

View attachment 539690

View attachment 539693

View attachment 539694

Merci bien for the info Maxipoo:
The details on the plans are excellent. Although it is a french naval ship the cannons suspension supporting ropes are connected directly to the cannons and not to the carriages , so it seems to be englih version and not the french style. Is it perhaps because it is a sliding type of gun carriage? The Corel plans in the kit which i bought about 35 years ago show the carriges with roller.
Do you have a complete plan for the rigging because the plans of Corel is incomplete.
I will try the foldables parts with hidden hinges in the rail if possible. After finishing doors and foldable parts i will send the fotos to you.
A Biento and Kind Regards

The attachments show the momentary phase of my build La Toulanaise

 

[Korsan]

Hi Maxipoo

Thank you for the precious info so i will build all the gun ports with interrupted foldable rail

Merci bien for the info Maxipoo:
The details on the plans are excellent. Although it is a french naval ship the cannons suspension supporting ropes are connected directly to the cannons and not to the carriages , so it seems to be englih version and not the french style. Is it perhaps because it is a sliding type of gun carriage? The Corel plans in the kit which i bought about 35 years ago show the carriges with roller.
Do you have a complete plan for the rigging because the plans of Corel is incomplete.
I will try the foldables parts with hidden hinges in the rail if possible. After finishing doors and foldable parts i will send the fotos to you.
A Biento and Kind Regards

The attachments show the momentary phase of my build La Toulanaise

View attachment 539911

View attachment 539912

hi Maxipoo
Toulannaise is at the moment.my summer vacation model.I have already finished the standing rigging of La Couronne in istanbul . I did not want to transport her to our summer vacation place (300 km away from Istanbul) i took the toulannaise kit with me and started to build 1 month.I hope to finish it before i go back to istanb.
Some fotos of la couronne are in the attcment

 

[AllanKP69]

What I also find interesting is the first drawing that appears to show a gun port directly over what appears to be the channels. That would have them shooting their own shrouds off

Gun ports were directly over the channels on many ships, especially in the 17th and early 18th century. Goodwin explains that the channel height varied over the years, but one of the reasons they were eventually raised was due to the reduction in the tumblehome.
Allan

 

[Korsan]

Gun ports were directly over the channels on many ships, especially in the 17th and early 18th century. Goodwin explains that the channel height varied over the years, but one of the reasons they were eventually raised was due to the reduction in the tumblehome.
Allan
View attachment 539919
View attachment 539920

Is there also any explanation why the railparts above the cannons are foldable like by the La Toulonnaise

 

[AllanKP69]

Is there also any explanation why the railparts above the cannons are foldable like by the La Toulonnaise

Not that I can find. Goodwin's The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War information would not necessarily comply with French construction practice. Hopefully some member has some additional information about this.
Allan

 

[Maxipoo]

Toulonnaise...
I think the rail can be opened to remove both parts of the gun ports, especially the upper one.

These are not cannons, but carronades, without wheels, that slide: see picture.
Unfortunately, I can't scan the entire rigging plan (120 cm x 80 cm), and you will need the 10-page notice.

 

[Korsan]

Toulonnaise...
I think the rail can be opened to remove both parts of the gun ports, especially the upper one.

These are not cannons, but carronades, without wheels, that slide: see picture.
Unfortunately, I can't scan the entire rigging plan (120 cm x 80 cm), and you will need the 10-page notice.

View attachment 539972

Bonjour Maxipoo
My opinion is:
The reason to remove port parts under the foldable rail could be because of the shortness of the nozzle of caronade compared to a cannon in order not to give a damage to the own vessel ,further while shooting it also gives more freedom to adjust the shooting angle
I have rigging instructions also but on the plan the end point of m11 line i couldnt find (Attachment blue arrow)
I hope you have an idea
Thanks

 

[iutar]

Is there also any explanation why the railparts above the cannons are foldable like by the La Toulonnaise

It's all very simple.
On large French ships, the gun ports of the carronades usually did not have covers.





But your ship is very small, and its gun deck is located too low to the water.
Therefore, to prevent water from pouring into the ship, covers were placed on the gun ports.
Typically these lids were hinged and opened upward like window shutters.
The covers of the gun ports of the carronades were very large and heavy, and were raised upwards with the help of a rope.






But the rope is only possible when the bulwarks are high.
If the bulwarks were low, as on your ship, the gun port covers would fold down onto the gunwale.



The heavy carronade cover was not suitable for throwing over the gunwale.

In addition, the barrel of the carronade was fixed, and therefore a hole was made in the lid for the barrel. But then the barrel did not allow the lid to be thrown upward.

Then the French came up with the idea of making the lid in two halves. The lower half of the lid, as in the classic version, folded down on hinges, like shutters on windows.

The top half of the lid had no hinges and simply moved upwards, it was a simple latch that was lifted vertically upwards along special guides.

The covers were lifted up and simply removed. Special guides were made on the top timbers. To remove the top cover, you had to fold back the gunwale. That's why your ship's gunwale has folding parts.













All the models shown were made at that time and are now kept in the Paris Marine Museum.

 

[Korsan]

It's all very simple.
On large French ships, the gun ports of the carronades usually did not have covers.

View attachment 540105

View attachment 540106

But your ship is very small, and its gun deck is located too low to the water.
Therefore, to prevent water from pouring into the ship, covers were placed on the gun ports.
Typically these lids were hinged and opened upward like window shutters.
The covers of the gun ports of the carronades were very large and heavy, and were raised upwards with the help of a rope.

View attachment 540107

View attachment 540108
View attachment 540109

But the rope is only possible when the bulwarks are high.
If the bulwarks were low, as on your ship, the gun port covers would fold down onto the gunwale.

View attachment 540110

The heavy carronade cover was not suitable for throwing over the gunwale.

In addition, the barrel of the carronade was fixed, and therefore a hole was made in the lid for the barrel. But then the barrel did not allow the lid to be thrown upward.

Then the French came up with the idea of making the lid in two halves. The lower half of the lid, as in the classic version, folded down on hinges, like shutters on windows.

The top half of the lid had no hinges and simply moved upwards, it was a simple latch that was lifted vertically upwards along special guides.

The covers were lifted up and simply removed. Special guides were made on the top timbers. To remove the top cover, you had to fold back the gunwale. That's why your ship's gunwale has folding parts.

View attachment 540112

View attachment 540113

View attachment 540114

View attachment 540115

View attachment 540116

View attachment 540117

All the models shown were made at that time and are now kept in the Paris Marine Museum.

Thank you for taking your time for this excellent detailed information
Luckly i haven’t glued the ports at the moment. I will somehow build functional ports according to your advice
Kind Regards

 

[Maxipoo]

Hello!

Your question about the tackle: it looks weird, not workable, the pendant (your blue arrow) should be going down not up. As where it should fixed: there is no answer in the notice of the Toulonnaise! I asked on another forum on this site. The only answer I got was that it may possibly be secured round the hook at the bottom of the lower block.

Coming back to the gun ports: there are definitely no hinges to the bottom part - see the plan I posted previously, or the museum model picture attached (only four guns!).

I went to the Naval Museum in Paris today: the Toulonnaise is definitely not there, probably still in Toulon (that would make sense: she was built there) or in the museum's reserves. Pity!

Enjoy!