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Just a quick question for the group. Is there anyone that can tell me how many plates there is per sheet for mantua hms victory 1/98. Just trying to find cheapest way to copper my victory
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Copper plate
- Thread starter Johnrichards07
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try copper tape with embossed nail heads. At 1/98 scale they will look great. Ali express has them. They come in a roll of approx. 500 units.
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Cheapest way: Use Paper! Using paper to simulate metal plating on a ship model hull has several advantages; especially as it can be secured with easy to use and durable PVA glue. Use acid free paper and give it a coat of Shellac. You could then paint it with copper paint and cut it into plates. A guillotine type paper cutter is a perfect tool for doing this. Once the plates have been glued to the hull, they can be weathered to suit your taste.
I believe that someone artistically inclined could produce a better looking copper sheathing job this way than by using kit supplied materials.
BTW there has been extensive discussion about showing nail heads on copper sheathing. Copper sheathing was secured with flat head nails. A round headed fastener would damage the sheathing. At scale viewing distance they would be invisible.
Roger
I believe that someone artistically inclined could produce a better looking copper sheathing job this way than by using kit supplied materials.
BTW there has been extensive discussion about showing nail heads on copper sheathing. Copper sheathing was secured with flat head nails. A round headed fastener would damage the sheathing. At scale viewing distance they would be invisible.
Roger
Unquestionably. At scales of 1:48 and smaller, there's no contest whatsoever. Paper, done as you describe, is the only way to go. I doubt anybody could ever take those "real copper plates" from a kit box and make a scale copper sheathed hull that looked remotely realistic. Of course, these days I suppose it doesn't matter to the kit manufacturers because the average kit buyer has never set eyes on a real full-scale copper sheathed bottom.
Yes, indeed, the gross error of "chicken pox hulls" has been noted over and over again and yet they still persist in selling "real copper plates" with insanely out-of-scale "rivets" all over them. I'm not sure why, but for some reason the message just isn't getting through. Perhaps people are just "walking on eggs" too much in online forums. Maybe when somebody posts a picture of a poorly done model, there should be a "thumbs down" emoji button to push along with the "likes" and "loves" and "laughs" emoji buttons.
Love the idea. Keep in mind that if the paper is painted first, after the plates are cut there will be the white edge so maybe it's better to paint after cutting or just remember to touch up the edges which would likely be easier.
It is probably just a quirk of my own, but the look of the coppered bottoms in general is a reason I will probably never again build a model of a wooden sailing ship that was built after the latter 1770s.
Allan
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what i did at one time is to use copper leaf if anyone remembers gold leafing sometimes called gilding. It is very thin sheets of gold, silver and copper. I basically did what Allan suggested i use card stock, cut it into plates and sheath the hull. When that was done i applied gilding glue and cover the plates with copper leaf. Looked great other than the mistake of trying to add nails that messed up the look. To finish i used a paint wash to tone down the copper
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Cheers shipahoy any chance you can get me a link to this i have looked on ali express but can't find them
T.I.A
THE TECHNIQUES OF COPPER SHEATHING SHIP MODEL HULLS:
The thickness of copper sheathing plates for ship bottoms varies by the location and design of the plating on the hull. Generally, the thickness is:
So, if you want to put correctly scaled copper plates on your 1:48 scale ship model hull, you will have to use very thin copper foil. All readily available papers, including Silkspan, are too thick. Copper leaf, as anyone who has ever worked with gold, silver, or copper leaf knows, would be almost impossible to handle in small pieces placed exactly as in scale coppering and once the leaf is burnished, as is necessary, seams would be rendered invisible.
No coppered ship's bottom ever stayed "new penny shiny" for more than a few weeks, even if it were shiny when the plate was fastened. Depending upon the enviornmental conditions, it will develop a patina colored anywhere from verdigris (green) to dull brown, not unlike a copper penny. (Caveat for younger modelers: The copper content of U.S. pennies was reduced in 1982 when the Mint transitioned to a composition of 97.5% zinc and 2.5% copper. This change was made due to rising copper prices and was intended to save on material costs. The composition remained stable until 1985, when it was permanently changed to 97.5% zinc and 2.5% copper.)
Any coppered bottom submerged for any length of time thereafter would have accumulated a substantial encrustation of marine growth shortly after launching colored in patches of black, brown, and green, depending upon the depth of the growth relative to the sunlight reaching it and the temperature and salinity of the water in which it sailed. Copper sheathing provided a physical barrier to teredo infestation with reduced electrolytic deterioration to iron fastenings but did not materially inhibit the growth of plant or animal life which attached itself to the exposed surface of the copper sheathing. It was only in 1914 that ablative antifouling paint containing cuprous oxide was invented that a coating became available that inhibited growth on the surface of a ship's bottom and, thereafter, copper sheathed bottoms were additionally coated with antifouling paint colored by the cuprous oxide to produce the now familiar reddish-brown "bottom paint" color.
THE ART OF COPPER SHEATHING SHIP MODEL HULLS:
It remains up to the modeler to determine the level of detail they wish to depict consistent with the limitations of the scale in which they are building and the scale viewing distance of their model. However, it would appear that at scale viewing distance of two or three feet for a 1:48 scale model, details such as copper sheathing seams, and certainly sheathing tacks, would not be visible.
As one looks at a model, the viewer's eye is drawn to certain details which "stand out" and this phenomenon may work to emphasize or "highlight" desired details or, on the other hand, to distract from the overall "compelling impression of reality" that a good scale model is intended to invite. To illustrate this point, on a wide expanse of otherwise perfectly smooth hull, the viewer's eye will immediately be drawn to a speck of dust or an unfair brush stroke which will cause the viewer's brain to lose the impression of accurate scale and ruin the impression of reality that a model is all about. When viewing a ship model, although the overall shape of the hull is of great importance, it must be viewed as a whole, while the important finer details are above the waterline on deck and aloft in the rigging. Care must be taken, then, to determine whether the modeler wishes to draw the viewer's attention to the important details above the waterline so as to emphasize these, or to detract from them by creating "distractions" below the waterline where "nothing much is happening." One response to this consideration is the "Navy Board Style" model which omits planking below the waterline to show stylized framing, thereby "balancing" the extent of detail above the waterline with the level of detail above the waterline. This occasions a lot of work but can be a very effective presentation artistically and it does serve to avoid "distractions" by emphasizing detail throughout the entire model and, more importantly, "lightening" the mass of the hull below the waterline when the model is viewed from a distance as a whole rather than being closely examined piecemeal. Arguably, this is not so with highly detailed copper sheathing on a model because placement of properly scaled copper plates results in a surface that does not present much detail at all and which is far more easily accomplished with a realistic paint job depicting the "weathered" bottom as it would actually appear at scale viewing distance. Alternately, as an artistic convention, scale model bottoms are painted a solid color throughout, which does not invite the eye to consider detail at all. For this reason, we see fine models of vessels prior to about 1775 (when coppering commenced) painted a uniform off-white to create the "impression" of the tallow and hair antifouling coating of the period, and after that a uniform "bottom paint red, or reddish-brown, and sometime verdigris, to depict an "impression" of copper sheathing or antifouling paint of later times. Such a treatment often does not depict the actual scale appearance of the hull below the waterline, but by its lack of detail "tricks the brain" to "record" a general impression of the hull below the waterline without distracting it with any fine detail at all and frees the eye to focus on the fine details of the model above the waterline.
Of course, none of these considerations apply to a model which is not intended to realistically depict a full-scale vessel presented at scale viewing distance. Artistic deviations as a matter of taste used to communicate the essence of a vessel, while certainly demanding highly developed artistic skill and judgment of their creators, certainly have their place as with the "bright" finished "Admiralty Style" models which rely on the natural finish of the woods used in their construction or the "Board Room Builder's Models" which often accent the metal fittings, sometimes even to the point of gold-plating them. All of these considerations, however, do emphasize that ship modeling of all types is indeed a form of artistic expression, just as with all other forms of representational art.
The thickness of copper sheathing plates for ship bottoms varies by the location and design of the plating on the hull. Generally, the thickness is:
- 32 oz per square foot at the bow. These plates are 0.043 inches thick. At 1:48 scale, these copper plates are ~0.001" thick.
- 28 oz per square foot for most of the sides. These plates are 0.028 inches thick. At 1:48 scale, these copper plates are ~0.0006" thick.
- 22 oz per square foot for the stern. These plates are 0.022 inches thick. At 1:48 scale, the copper plates are ~0.00046" thick.
- A standard piece of printer paper is typically about 0.002 to 0.004 inches thick.
- A standard index card of 100 pound cardstock is about 0.03 inches thick.
- A standard piece of tissue paper is typically between 0.01 and 0.035 inches thick.
- A piece of Silkspan is typically 0.002 inches thick.
- Very thin copper foil is approximately .001 inches thick.
- A standard piece of copper leaf is typically about 0.00003 inches thick.
So, if you want to put correctly scaled copper plates on your 1:48 scale ship model hull, you will have to use very thin copper foil. All readily available papers, including Silkspan, are too thick. Copper leaf, as anyone who has ever worked with gold, silver, or copper leaf knows, would be almost impossible to handle in small pieces placed exactly as in scale coppering and once the leaf is burnished, as is necessary, seams would be rendered invisible.
No coppered ship's bottom ever stayed "new penny shiny" for more than a few weeks, even if it were shiny when the plate was fastened. Depending upon the enviornmental conditions, it will develop a patina colored anywhere from verdigris (green) to dull brown, not unlike a copper penny. (Caveat for younger modelers: The copper content of U.S. pennies was reduced in 1982 when the Mint transitioned to a composition of 97.5% zinc and 2.5% copper. This change was made due to rising copper prices and was intended to save on material costs. The composition remained stable until 1985, when it was permanently changed to 97.5% zinc and 2.5% copper.)
Any coppered bottom submerged for any length of time thereafter would have accumulated a substantial encrustation of marine growth shortly after launching colored in patches of black, brown, and green, depending upon the depth of the growth relative to the sunlight reaching it and the temperature and salinity of the water in which it sailed. Copper sheathing provided a physical barrier to teredo infestation with reduced electrolytic deterioration to iron fastenings but did not materially inhibit the growth of plant or animal life which attached itself to the exposed surface of the copper sheathing. It was only in 1914 that ablative antifouling paint containing cuprous oxide was invented that a coating became available that inhibited growth on the surface of a ship's bottom and, thereafter, copper sheathed bottoms were additionally coated with antifouling paint colored by the cuprous oxide to produce the now familiar reddish-brown "bottom paint" color.
THE ART OF COPPER SHEATHING SHIP MODEL HULLS:
It remains up to the modeler to determine the level of detail they wish to depict consistent with the limitations of the scale in which they are building and the scale viewing distance of their model. However, it would appear that at scale viewing distance of two or three feet for a 1:48 scale model, details such as copper sheathing seams, and certainly sheathing tacks, would not be visible.
As one looks at a model, the viewer's eye is drawn to certain details which "stand out" and this phenomenon may work to emphasize or "highlight" desired details or, on the other hand, to distract from the overall "compelling impression of reality" that a good scale model is intended to invite. To illustrate this point, on a wide expanse of otherwise perfectly smooth hull, the viewer's eye will immediately be drawn to a speck of dust or an unfair brush stroke which will cause the viewer's brain to lose the impression of accurate scale and ruin the impression of reality that a model is all about. When viewing a ship model, although the overall shape of the hull is of great importance, it must be viewed as a whole, while the important finer details are above the waterline on deck and aloft in the rigging. Care must be taken, then, to determine whether the modeler wishes to draw the viewer's attention to the important details above the waterline so as to emphasize these, or to detract from them by creating "distractions" below the waterline where "nothing much is happening." One response to this consideration is the "Navy Board Style" model which omits planking below the waterline to show stylized framing, thereby "balancing" the extent of detail above the waterline with the level of detail above the waterline. This occasions a lot of work but can be a very effective presentation artistically and it does serve to avoid "distractions" by emphasizing detail throughout the entire model and, more importantly, "lightening" the mass of the hull below the waterline when the model is viewed from a distance as a whole rather than being closely examined piecemeal. Arguably, this is not so with highly detailed copper sheathing on a model because placement of properly scaled copper plates results in a surface that does not present much detail at all and which is far more easily accomplished with a realistic paint job depicting the "weathered" bottom as it would actually appear at scale viewing distance. Alternately, as an artistic convention, scale model bottoms are painted a solid color throughout, which does not invite the eye to consider detail at all. For this reason, we see fine models of vessels prior to about 1775 (when coppering commenced) painted a uniform off-white to create the "impression" of the tallow and hair antifouling coating of the period, and after that a uniform "bottom paint red, or reddish-brown, and sometime verdigris, to depict an "impression" of copper sheathing or antifouling paint of later times. Such a treatment often does not depict the actual scale appearance of the hull below the waterline, but by its lack of detail "tricks the brain" to "record" a general impression of the hull below the waterline without distracting it with any fine detail at all and frees the eye to focus on the fine details of the model above the waterline.
Of course, none of these considerations apply to a model which is not intended to realistically depict a full-scale vessel presented at scale viewing distance. Artistic deviations as a matter of taste used to communicate the essence of a vessel, while certainly demanding highly developed artistic skill and judgment of their creators, certainly have their place as with the "bright" finished "Admiralty Style" models which rely on the natural finish of the woods used in their construction or the "Board Room Builder's Models" which often accent the metal fittings, sometimes even to the point of gold-plating them. All of these considerations, however, do emphasize that ship modeling of all types is indeed a form of artistic expression, just as with all other forms of representational art.
Yes, even 16lb paper is 0.0034" thick. Add the thickness of a thin coat of paint which would be about 0.0004-0.001" thick and it is much too thick for any of the plates. The idea of just painting as was done on most contemporary models makes sense.
Allan
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For my Victory in 1:100 I had too the task. This is how good copper etch plates may look like, no option for me.
In one of my german Forums I found the trick of using self adhesive copper foil from the Tiffany lamps sortiment, always placing whole lines. Quite cheap material that comes in a variaty of widths, 4,4 mm should do the job for a Vic in 1:98. To avoid flashing from the underground I gave a base of copper paint.
Later on I still added the nails, once I found a way of doing them true to scale.
The 2 edges I did with a riveting tool from the aeroplane department.
0,75 mm distance for the edges, and 1,5 mmf for the middle.
But as the ones in the middle prooved to be too unregulary for my taste, I created my own tool out of a micro needleing device from the girls beauty department.
I changed the spacers and later one even made a thinner handle.
In one of my german Forums I found the trick of using self adhesive copper foil from the Tiffany lamps sortiment, always placing whole lines. Quite cheap material that comes in a variaty of widths, 4,4 mm should do the job for a Vic in 1:98. To avoid flashing from the underground I gave a base of copper paint.
Later on I still added the nails, once I found a way of doing them true to scale.
The 2 edges I did with a riveting tool from the aeroplane department.
0,75 mm distance for the edges, and 1,5 mmf for the middle.
But as the ones in the middle prooved to be too unregulary for my taste, I created my own tool out of a micro needleing device from the girls beauty department.
I changed the spacers and later one even made a thinner handle.
Last edited:
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That was the result:
First finish the application of the tape, then rivet the edges.
And then the inside
Minor unregularities I did by hand
And here the comparisson from pure Tiffany and with nailing
And yes, it is still scale 1:100.
I already seen plenty of real copper sheeting on ships, and I still am quite happy with the result.
And after more than 10 years I do not have any problems with the applied material.
XXXDAn
First finish the application of the tape, then rivet the edges.
And then the inside
Minor unregularities I did by hand
And here the comparisson from pure Tiffany and with nailing
And yes, it is still scale 1:100.
I already seen plenty of real copper sheeting on ships, and I still am quite happy with the result.
And after more than 10 years I do not have any problems with the applied material.
XXXDAn
To victory and beyond ...
...hihihihihi... YES, the view from up there is gigantic! Downwards too :-) But most of the crew were just looking up ;-) But there in front it is not bad either. Especially when the Bonnie has gone into the net with you - nice play on words :-) Because it's homey there too, the...
shipsofscale.com
Last edited:
A copper nail head is about 3/8 inch wide. In 1/72 scale that is around 1/128. virtually invisible. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WGYP2VR?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title Adhesive backed copper foil/tape.
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I agree completely that the head of the nail itself is almost invisible at the scales that we usually use.
Since about 10 years I am collecting pictures of real copper sheeting - contemporary ones and modern ones - and also had a look at more than two dozen of them in real life in museums, harbors and ship yards.
Looking at the distance there are some, where the nailing pattern is almost not visible.
But most of them the nailing patter is quite visible, but not by the head of the nail, but by the effects and distortion it gives on the copper plate.
The ones on the edges usually show themself as appearent lines, as the nails are quite narrowly put and together with the overlapping, this is creates a distortion in the viewers observation.
Heras the ones in the middle of the plate, as there is soft material underneath, have an imprinted cussion effect, like the knobs on Grandma´s compfty chair. Also there is often a slight change of color from the material itself or the reflection of the surrounding light.
So one can easily choose his/her own preferences to what to display or not in the build
Only check, that it is true to scale and true to the eye - at least if you feel like it ;-)
XXXDAn
PS: I added some impressions through 250 years of coppering
Since about 10 years I am collecting pictures of real copper sheeting - contemporary ones and modern ones - and also had a look at more than two dozen of them in real life in museums, harbors and ship yards.
Looking at the distance there are some, where the nailing pattern is almost not visible.
But most of them the nailing patter is quite visible, but not by the head of the nail, but by the effects and distortion it gives on the copper plate.
The ones on the edges usually show themself as appearent lines, as the nails are quite narrowly put and together with the overlapping, this is creates a distortion in the viewers observation.
Heras the ones in the middle of the plate, as there is soft material underneath, have an imprinted cussion effect, like the knobs on Grandma´s compfty chair. Also there is often a slight change of color from the material itself or the reflection of the surrounding light.
So one can easily choose his/her own preferences to what to display or not in the build
Only check, that it is true to scale and true to the eye - at least if you feel like it ;-)
XXXDAn
PS: I added some impressions through 250 years of coppering
Look under "copper sheathing ship " available in scales of 48, 75, 96. sold by a company called "nicetoy store"
Let me know if you find it.