Weldbond glue

[Roger Pellett]

For my current project, I have decided to switch from my usual Titebond to an archival quality glue. My (limited) understanding of glue technology is that Titebond glue is acidic.

Weldbond offers a line of PVA glues that are supposedly non-acidic. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

My confusion is that references here on SOS refer to Weldbond Universal Adhesive. When I look this up on the internet I’m offered Weldbond Multi Surface Adhesive. Are these the same, just rebranded?

Roger

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

Weldbond adhesive has a pH level between 4.5 and 5.5 (slightly acidic) according to the Weldbond FAQ and product safety data sheets Weldbond Safety Data Sheet

Titebond III pH 2.5-3.5
Titebond II pH 3.0
Titebond I pH 3.5-4.5

Being polyvinyl acetate - the acid is acetic which is volatile the vinegar smell

Weldbond -except for their creative advertising copy is probably identical to the white version of Titebond.

Lineco white neutral pH adhesive pH 7-9 but it is also polyvinyl acetate

I am fighting with the Google AI to find a pre-mixed polyvinyl alcohol product - the acetate mfg have bribed it too much .

 

[paul ron]

everyone is so concerned about archival these days, yet there are antique models and other crafted goods built way before anyone was concerned about archival methods n materials still in perfect condition.

visit a museum and tell me if anything there was fabricated using archival methods or materials? yes, we are doing restorations, but think about how old those items are? would archival made any difference? anything created using archival only has a short track record and certainly not enough to say its actually working. perhaps my great great grand kids will see if its actually proven itself.


archival? do you expect your models to live forever or just a life time? once im gone, i couldnt care less what happens to my creations. i create to make me happy, not anyone else. im sure after im dead, the clean out will include most of my "junk" in my workshop.... even if i used archival methods n materials.

nothing lasts forever! use whatever works best... not lasts longest.

thats my 2 cents n im sticking to it.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

I think this is a chasing unicorns sort of situation.
I am coming to the conclusion that a pre-mixed PV alcohol adhesive does to exist and that if it did - the strength is not competitive with PVacetate woodworking adhesives.

I think that the object of your quest is hide glue.
Premixed - contains urea:
Franklin - too watery for me
Old Brown - needs to be used warm - water bath something like 140-160 degrees for wood to wood
StewMac sells pe-mixed Fish glue

all are protein based - great food for microbes - short shelf life - store in fridge - need to check mfg date before buying

Hot pot hide glue - the water jacketed preset temp pot is an expense
there are about four grades of hide glue granules - the higher the number - the stronger to bond strength - the shorter the open time - the highest seems to have the danger of being so brittle that a physical shock will shatter the bond - not good.
There is a learning curve. Proven stability - see the NMM collection.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

everyone is so concerned about archival these days

Not so sure just who is this "everyone"?
Just how helpful is a belittling comment? the majority population is already indifferent to archival -
a key indicator - the unquestioning acceptance of 3D printed parts - when the the plastic that does it probably has a 10-20 year shelf life - at best.

 

[paul ron]

its not belittling, thats my opinion based on my experiance... take it or leave it.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

its not belittling, thats my opinion based on my experiance... take it or leave it.

Works for me - I think that GAIA (the equation that defines the biological infestation of Terra) will render any concerns about archival anything moot sooner than later. Archival is an interesting thought experiment - even if it doomed in reality.
Now kits and archival is probably a textbook example of .....

 

[paul ron]

this discussion has been going on for a long time.. im involved in oil painting, sculpting, photography, weaving n of course model building amongst a few others.

going digital photography vs analog n longevity vs archival. same is true for other crafts. archival has been a recent concern and i feel its become more of a business rather than a reach for actual longevity. it has no real track record to base any of it on. as you pointed out 3d modeling uses degrading materials, but archival is the buzz word being used more and more even in industry as a sales pitch along with sustainability.

ive seen kits advertised as archival, photo paper n mounting, film n chemicals n other materials; but does it mean it will last hundreds of years? absolutely not but yet they are more expensive.... that says what to you?

im sure this would make an interesting thread on its own.
sorry for hijacking this thread.

 

[Roger Pellett]

My opinion is that Purgatory does exist, except it’s on earth; the senior citizen warehouse/ assisted living center. At 83 years old this is always lurking. I, therefore, want my current ship model project to be my masterpiece incorporating the lessons that I’ve learned over the years.

I have grandchildren, and would like to build something that they can treasure, and yes, possibly have some value.

I don’t consider the term archival to be important but I don’t want to knowingly use materials that will decay inside of a glass case. That’s why I asked the question. Jaager’s opinion, that I trust is that Titebond is chemically similar to other commonly available wood glues. I think that I’ll use it.

Roger

 

[Y.T.]

everyone is so concerned about archival these days,

Really, who cares that their creations will last a bit longer before they decompose. I do not. Especially after I abandon this world. Then who cares?

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

this discussion has been going on for a long time.. im involved in oil painting, sculpting, photography, weaving n of course model building amongst a few others

Your response makes more sense with the knowledge that it has a broader origin than just ship modeling for you and that is a source of frustration from a high scam component. Having zero interest in kits after cutting my teeth on a Scientific kitsch kit and a yellow box semi scratch classroom, I was not aware that the advertising copy scam extended to ship model kits.
I know where Roger is coming from and being old school it is easy to forget that our focus on emulating what the 17thC and 18thC English shipyards did is not the common focus.
In that light it is not a high jacking but rather a warning about a real but not involved hazard.

 

[marter1229]

My opinion is that Purgatory does exist, except it’s on earth; the senior citizen warehouse/ assisted living center. At 83 years old this is always lurking. I, therefore, want my current ship model project to be my masterpiece incorporating the lessons that I’ve learned over the years.

I have grandchildren, and would like to build something that they can treasure, and yes, possibly have some value.

I don’t consider the term archival to be important but I don’t want to knowingly use materials that will decay inside of a glass case. That’s why I asked the question. Jaager’s opinion, that I trust is that Titebond is chemically similar to other commonly available wood glues. I think that I’ll use it.

Roger

Well said Sir.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

i doubt my actual models will survive, many of them have already been damaged or used as kindling wood in my wood burning stove. What will survive is my footprint online, how i built them and images of them. Online thousands of model builders will see my work as long as the Virtual world exist. Who will actually see the real thing? not more than a handful of friends and relatives. The models built by Harold Hahn are master pieces and the odds of anyone actually seeing one up close and personal slim to not at all. Even models built for museum display such as the Alvin Clark a 1840 Lake Schooner built by a museum model club now lost in a warehouse someplace.

 

[paul ron]

then the reality of the destiny of our models regardless how well built or archival....

when its time for you to enter purgatory on earth and your house or home has to be vacated. the family now has the burden to get everything out before the end of the month or sale of the house. the family will have to find space in their own places, that are more than likely over run with their own crap, for all your stuff thats been piling up for the past 60 years.

a large ship in a case doesnt fit as easily as it did in your decore. then how many ships have to be distributed besides furniture n work stuff? we went through a house cleaning recently and most of the stuff ended up in the dumpster.

my kids all have a ship each but what about the 8 others i have sitting around collecting dust and that monster case in the foyer? donate it to the nursing home? fire place kindling!

archival doesnt mean doodley squat then.

 

[Stan Stocker]

The preceding posts have most all a person needs to decide on an adhesive / glue. My only offering to the crowd is that "wax pots" as found in beauty shops tearing off various hairs are a very lower cost option to traditional electrically heated hide glue pots from woodworking suppliers. Last time I looked they were around $40 USD on Amazon. If you wish to go the hot glue route buy fresh granules and read up on the correct method of preparing the glue for use, it isn't as simple as adding a soup packet to boiling water.

 

[Ted Robinson]

As I approach my end I think wanting to leave something around that someone else values becomes important. And maybe it would be a reminder of what they valued in me. Is it vanity or just grieving our own demise.

 

[Roger Pellett]

In past years men married the girl next door and multi generational families lived close to one another

My wife growing has fond memories of her grandparents. I only met one of mine; my mother’s mother who died when I was 5. As a result, I know nothing about them. The Pellett family is now spread across the USA.

I do have two ship models built by my father over the period 1935-1945. They remain my connection to him.

I have three granddaughters and three nieces. That’s six ship models.

Roger

 

[seadeep]

Well, I'll toss in my thoughts on archival materials... most of which is conjecture loosely based on what I've discovered over the years. Take it for what it's worth... which isn't much.

I think one of the challenges with archival materials is that unless they're actually based on the same products and manufacturing processes and materials that were used several hundred years ago and can now be confirmed as having survived... it's all based on scientific estimates of how long a particular material will survive. Something created today that never existed as a material previously has no track record to lock down its true life expectancy. I think back to "archival grade" dvd and cd media. Hugely expensive compared to regular media, but "estimated" to last a hundred years. I'd question if we have the tools to even read hundred year old digital content in the year 2126, let alone whether or not the media (and its recorded data) survived. lol It's like if you have data stored on Iomega ZIP discs, or even 5-1/4" floppies. Trying to find the hardware to read them is the first challenge, trying to find hardware that still works is the second challenge, and then trying to figure out if its the reader or the media that has deteriorated to the point where the content can no longer be read. So if someone says they made a glue that's of archival quality, just how long can they truly guarantee it will survive to maintain the bond... and not deteriorate any of the materials it was used to bond. I'd probably be more concerned if I made models for museums, but I don't. If they survive long enough to outlive me, I seriously doubt any of my relatives will want them. Maybe they'll end up as dust collecting curiosities in a fish and chip shop.