Is the Golden era of POF gone!

[Loracs]

I'm have been following SOS for years now... reading and watching all the wonderful builds in progress. However, I have been noticing that we are seing far less new kits being released the last few years. It seen that the drive for POF kits, mostly from China Developers, is dying off, while overall pricing has gone significantly up. In addition, western developers still have not adopted significantly this building style thru their offerings. Is POF style of building (via kits) slowing dying off and potentially only accessible to the Scratch-builders in the future? For example, it has been quite a long time that we have not seen an addition to the Group builds (or ship kit vendors), which is often sparked by a new release. I would love to hear your opinion.

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

I'm have been following SOS for years now... reading and watching all the wonderful builds in progress. However, I have been noticing that we are seing far less new kits being released the last few years.

kits are expensive to develop and market so kit makers stick to what sells and not take a risk

Is POF style of building (via kits) slowing dying off and potentially only accessible to the Scratch-builders in the future?

dying off? it is the opposite it is coming back strong go to the school for model shipwrights and the projects being done there. 119,000 views at the school and growing is a sigh of NOT dying off but a renaissance in ship modeling.

School For Shipmodel Building

It seen that the drive for POF kits, mostly from China Developers, is dying off, while overall pricing has gone significantly up

this is true because it is a full "kit" and those are expensive to produce there are alternatives

 

[Horace]

I'm apparently working on a PoF kit from Model Expo called the 18th Century Armed Longboat. I wouldn't have guessed it had a different architecture label than a plank on bulkhead model. The building process has been identical.

 

[alross2]

Loracs, when you refer to POF kits, do you mean kits with the same number and construction of frames as the actual vessel or a kit that has planks over a smaller number of frames/.bulkheads?

 

[Loracs]

Loracs, when you refer to POF kits, do you mean kits with the same number and construction of frames as the actual vessel or a kit that has planks over a smaller number of frames/.bulkheads?

That would be the first option. In addition it better provide the option to display the interior layout, which I like.

 

[Loracs]

I'm apparently working on a PoF kit from Model Expo called the 18th Century Armed Longboat. I wouldn't have guessed it had a different architecture label than a plank on bulkhead model. The building process has been identical.

good find from a western manufacturer... indeed I would categorize as POF.

 

[Loracs]

I'm have been following SOS for years now... reading and watching all the wonderful builds in progress. However, I have been noticing that we are seing far less new kits being released the last few years.

kits are expensive to develop and market so kit makers stick to what sells and not take a risk

Is POF style of building (via kits) slowing dying off and potentially only accessible to the Scratch-builders in the future?

dying off? it is the opposite it is coming back strong go to the school for model shipwrights and the projects being done there. 119,000 views at the school and growing is a sigh of NOT dying off but a renaissance in ship modeling.

School For Shipmodel Building

It seen that the drive for POF kits, mostly from China Developers, is dying off, while overall pricing has gone significantly up

this is true because it is a full "kit" and those are expensive to produce there are alternatives

thanks, Dave, for your input!

 

[Horace]

good find from a western manufacturer... indeed I would categorize as POF.

Coincidentally I also have this canoe which I think must be PoF

Midwest - Canadian Canoe 1:8 Scale

Level 3 of the Midwest Apprentice Succes Series The "cottager's canoe", ideal for general purpose paddling and light tripping Length: 23-1/4" Width: 3-5/8 Height - 1-9/16" Download Manual ModelExpo brings back America's favorite wooden model kits. Midwest line of Success Series boat kits is...

www.modelexpo-online.com

 

[Bryian]

Just purchased H.H.S Blandford plank on frame kit in 1/48 scale from Drydock models. It’s superb.

 

[Roger Pellett]

The Model Shipways longboat kit is what I would call an “improved POB” kit. Bulkheads are erected and the hull is planked. The bulkheads as furnished are cut allowing the inner part to be removed. What’s left gives the illusion of frames. Width of the frames is overscale and spacing does not resemble practice.

Roger

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

It seen that the drive for POF kits, mostly from China Developers, is dying off, while overall pricing has gone significantly up. In addition, western developers still have not adopted significantly this building style thru their offerings. Is POF style of building (via kits) slowing dying off and potentially only accessible to the Scratch-builders

Real POF involves a heavy dues payment. It is not a building method open to short cuts.

POF as done by scratch builders has been and probably always will be only available to scratch builders.

Any kit version of ship POF is and probably always will be the illusion of POF. They are not a model version of a ship on the ways in frame only. The complications and significantly low yield for the frame stock involved with actual POF - plus the man hours needed for the manipulations probably will always be on the too expensive side of the cost/profit equation for any kit.

(This excludes anything involving open boats. Most of those have visible "frames". They are most often ribs - structural supports for the planking (in full size) - added after the planking. Steam bent is actually planking over existing ribs, but built up framing first is probably rare in open boats.)

It seems that a fear of mine has come to pass. The advertising and hype coming with "kit POF" has done its job and scammed those who buy these kits into believing that they are actually doing POF. What it is = pretend POF.

 

[AllanKP69]

Any kit version of ship POF is and probably always will be the illusion of POF.

Hi Dean,
Many contemporary models are not framed like the actual ships. If a kit is framed that way, is it not POF?

The kits from MD are fully framed. With all respect, I believe the kit below can be called POF rather than an illusion. Same goes for the Unicorn kits. With today's technology, any kit manufacturer can provide accurate framing pieces if they choose to invest in the research as MD has done.

Allan

 

[Horace]

It seems that a fear of mine has come to pass. The advertising and hype coming with "kit POF" has done its job and scammed those who buy these kits into believing that they are actually doing POF. What it is = pretend POF.

I'll bet exactly zero people on the planet who bought a PoF kit are worried whether random other people consider it to be real PoF.

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

Many contemporary models are not framed like the actual ships.

I did not intend that as being literal in the engineering sense. I am very much in the stylized framing camp.

The kits from MD are fully framed. With all respect, I believe the kit can be called POF rather than an illusion?

If that is the photo - I agree that the product is POF.
It should also be expensive to produce - and involve a serious design effort. If the price is reasonable now, those interested should not tarry, it may eventually have a price that reflects its actual cost.

It is also nothing like tab A in slot B as far as what it takes to construct it. I do not believe that most of the models in the NMM are the product of one builder. A team of specialists and a lot of interns for the scut work.
The point - actual POF is labor intensive and wood stock costly. Someone has to do the work. I guess a laser cutter can save some of it, but no matter who, I see it as being at the high end of cost. The question : is it commercially sustainable?

Not at all familiar with Unicorn.

 

[zoly99sask]

I'm have been following SOS for years now... reading and watching all the wonderful builds in progress. However, I have been noticing that we are seing far less new kits being released the last few years. It seen that the drive for POF kits, mostly from China Developers, is dying off, while overall pricing has gone significantly up. In addition, western developers still have not adopted significantly this building style thru their offerings. Is POF style of building (via kits) slowing dying off and potentially only accessible to the Scratch-builders in the future? For example, it has been quite a long time that we have not seen an addition to the Group builds (or ship kit vendors), which is often sparked by a new release. I would love to hear your opinion.

POF kits actually it is not dying off, there are more and more of kits coming from China, Modelship Dockyard Unicorn models main focus are POF ,CAF Models also.As for the group builds ,that does not reflect the loss of popularity of POF kits,there is no point to create a group build anymore where only two people join to share their logs and build.

 

[janos]

I started Tom's Granado kit a good while ago, but I had to put it aside. I will pick it up soon. If anything is wrong, it is with me, not the kit. I am getting slower... and I think the same is happening to many builders here on the forum.
What I could see was a surge in new suppliers a few years ago. Mostly Chinese and Russians. The conventional European and American suppliers did not follow the trend and continued trying to send the old boxes. At least I could not see any significant change in their strategies. The new ones came up with laser and CNC cutting and went into very fine details. The consequence was obviously higher prices, which is not nice, but necessary. We have to appreciate (and pay for) details - the preparation of such a kit is enormous. The other side of this is the good old question of copyright. The first of these (mostly Chinese) kits had a bad 'press' - the oldies attacked them, saying that they were all 'stolen'. To address this, I can see notes on recent kits saying the plans were authorised by this and that. Anyhow, to create the 3D model of a ship - and to manage the production of it - is a huge job, and I think it is unfair to attack a kit because of missing authorisation. But copyright must be accepted, of course.
I think on the scene of ship model kits the same is happening as with anything else in production. First, a number of manufacturers turn up and try to run the wave. Then the commercial reality bites, and only those with established technical and commercial backgrounds remain. Some who don't have the financial background or the technology fall out. Only the stubborn ones remain - this is the phase we can see with the model kits today. Time will tell whether the old, traditional European or American suppliers will stay on or will fail.
János

 

[Albin Huebl]

If the old POB manufacturers don’t soon adapt to the quality standards now demanded by model shipbuilders—with Vanguard Models setting the bar here—they’ll run into trouble sooner or later. I built a Vanguard model that was excellent, and then a CAF POF model. The quality of the CAF model was fascinating. Personally, from a craftsmanship standpoint, POF simply appeals to me more.

But good POB, if it meets Vanguard’s quality standards, will always have its place.
As a little practice project, I’m currently working on a 1:24 Battle Station; it’s meant to be a diorama scene depicting Lord Nelson’s final moments just minutes before his death.
I’m using two basic kits from Mantua/Panart as my base models. They’re of such poor quality that, once you’re familiar with CAF and Vanguard Models, you’d hardly believe such things still exist today. The cheapest wood, even cheaper plywood—in the end, I threw away 90% of the material and replaced it with accurately crafted, high-quality wood.
This type of cheaply manufactured kit will—rightly so—run into trouble.
The result of the obvious improvement in quality from leading manufacturers—and there are even more of them; you just have to check out Dry-Dock Models or ZHL, as well as some Chinese manufacturers who haven’t even made it to our market yet—is, of course, a price that reflects this quality. If you buy cheap, you get cheap quality.

 

[AllanKP69]

If that is the photo

The photo is from a build log here at SoS. If you follow the MD logs you will see more of the details their kits go into. Portland appears to be coming on as well.

As to pricing, here are some comparisons in $US. They all have a selection of smaller less expensive models as well. There are obviously many more manufacturers but this might be a good cross section of varying qualities.

Vanguard
Indefatigable $1,888
Surprise $1,715

OcCre
Limited edition Victory $1,800
Limited edition Soleil Royal $2,650 Sold out (Doc Bridges had a point )

MD
Enterprise $1,298 I believe this is their most expensive kit.

Artesania Latina
Victory $1,915
Surprise $1,399


To be fair, MD kits are made in China where labor costs are drastically lower. Still, with the advent of modern technology, once the initial programming is done, the making of parts is not labor intensive and somewhat levels the playing field.

Allan

 

[Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)]

If the old POB manufacturers don’t soon adapt to the quality standards now demanded by model shipbuilders—with Vanguard Models setting the bar here—they’ll run into trouble sooner or later. I built a Vanguard model that was excellent, and then a CAF POF model. The quality of the CAF model was fascinating. Personally, from a craftsmanship standpoint, POF simply appeals to me more.


The topic is about POF (plank on frame) models not POB (plank on bulkhead) Vanguard kits are the old POB kits they may set the standards in hobby kits but are not even in the same universe as plank on frame modeling. As you said "If the old POB manufacturers don’t soon adapt to the quality standards now demanded by model shipbuilders" Vanguard kits may have reached the top of hobby kits they too face the challenges of builders wanting to step up to POF modeling. Vanguard kits along with many others are old school POB double planked hulls.


What I could see was a surge in new suppliers a few years ago. Mostly Chinese and Russians. The conventional European and American suppliers did not follow the trend

The wave of kits being made in China are on the cutting-edge of POF kits introduced by a cutting-edge supplier Dry Dock Models who sees the future of the hobby and a breakaway from the same old plank on bulkheads kits of the last 50 years. Sure, one company claims better quality, but the technology is old.

The consequence was obviously higher prices, which is not nice, but necessary. We have to appreciate (and pay for) details - the preparation of such a kit is enormous. The other side of this is the good old question of copyright. The first of these (mostly Chinese) kits had a bad 'press' - the oldies attacked them, saying that they were all 'stolen'.

I think on the scene of ship model kits the same is happening as with anything else in production. First, a number of manufacturers turn up and try to run the wave. Then the commercial reality bites, and only those with established technical and commercial backgrounds remain. Some who don't have the financial background or the technology fall out. Only the stubborn ones remain - this is the phase we can see with the model kits today. Time will tell whether the old, traditional European or American suppliers will stay on or will fail.
János

if a company introduces a POF kit and no other manufactures such a kit then how can it be stolen? from where and from whom? But the tables have turned and All kits and manufactures are now accepted.


Some who don't have the financial background or the technology fall out

traditional European or American kit makers do have the technology it is the cost of manufacturing that cripples the progress. It will end up few will pay $1,500.00 and up for a hobby model kit. That is pricing it right out of the hobby market making it highly specialized for a very small niche market. That small of a market is not sustainable, how many $1,000.00 kits do you think a builder will buy? one? how many POF kits does the supplier offer 1 many 3 so even if a builder builds all you offer then they are done with you OR go into scratch building.

 

[Horace]

It seems like a small slice of people who are purist enough to prefer a PoF kit but not purist enough to do scratch building. I understand it matters aesthetically in an admiralty style model, but where it does not matter aesthetically to the completed model, I wonder if a meaningful slice of hobbyists cares about PoF vs PoB.