A Sailing Question for Sailors

Signet

Signet

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I intend to model my Ragusian Carrack under full sail, with the wind from the aft, but at an angle (say the 4 or 5 O'Clock position). I know what position the square-rigged sails should be in, and know what I've seen on models for the lateen sail on the mizzenmast, but wonder about the lateen sail's correct position. It's purpose, I believe, is more to steer the ship, than to provide propulsion. My model will also have a Bonaventure sail, which further complicates the positions of the rear-most two sails.

For rigging purposes, I have made a side and top view of the intended sail positions, which I will post here:
1702442916391.png
Do you think the mizzen and bonaventure sail positions are logical and correct? It seems to me that they would tend to turn the ship toward starboard, that is the reason for my question.

Well sailors, what say ye?
 
They look correct from my small boat sailing.

Weather it helps turn or it helps drive the ship depends on how far outboard the sail is swung.

Yours looks set for steaming if swung wide to catch max wind it would be rigged for pushing for speed!

Just my two cents

Kurt
 
That is interesting. How, though, would this be achieved n the absence of a bowsprit topmast to provide a point above the spritsail yard from which to lift?
It is not a very elegant looking arrangement which raises an iteresting point: should a display model be set to be aesthetically pleasing or authentic?
 
Kurt Konrath said:
They look correct from my small boat sailing.

Weather it helps turn or it helps drive the ship depends on how far outboard the sail is swung.

Yours looks set for steaming if swung wide to catch max wind it would be rigged for pushing for speed!
Click to expand...
Thinking about it a bit more, the bowsprit and foresail would definitely be trying to turn the ship to port, so having the two lateen sails trying to turn to starboard might be about right.
 
JerryTodd said:
Sprits'l yards are typically rotated around the bowsprit rather than twisted on their parrels, as on the Kalmar Nyckel...
Click to expand...
I realize the bowsprit spar has limited movement due to the parrel (in this case, rope), but thought it could rotate about the parrel some. Not like with vertical masts, of course, and I'm sure you're right when I think about it, rotating horizontally would really put stress on the parrel roping. It does tend to look funny though (Oh, I see you dropped your model. When are you going to fix it?). And I don't see that it catches the wind too much differently.
 
Short John Bronze said:
That is interesting. How, though, would this be achieved n the absence of a bowsprit topmast to provide a point above the spritsail yard from which to lift?
It is not a very elegant looking arrangement which raises an iteresting point: should a display model be set to be aesthetically pleasing or authentic?
Click to expand...
Yes, a very interesting thought. I guess we all try to strike a balance here.
 
JerryTodd said:
Sprits'l yards are typically rotated around the bowsprit rather than twisted on their parrels, as on the Kalmar Nyckel...
View attachment 413742
Click to expand...
This photo shows another excellent detail: the bonnet sail additions are very much their own sail, in that the main sails have the sheets attached to them, and the bonnets fill separately (bulge out separately), and must have additional sheets to hold them in place. Bonnets are usually modeled as if they just form an addition to the main sail, with sheets and tacks only connected at the bottom. I'll really have to think about how this will change my connections. I assume, for example, that leech lines only run down to the corner of the main sail, and not to the bonnet. Verrry Interesing...
 
The bonnets are a quandary. I've done quite a few searches, with little information. The following illustration indicates the bonnet was added, then normal rigging lines attached at the clew (clew, sheet and tacks):
1702484014323.png
But the photograph above seems to show those lines attached to the clew of the main sail, so they would never be removed or changed, and at least one additional line to the clew of the bonnet. Perhaps early ships like this one, which used toggles to connect to the clews, might be moved to the bonnet, while later ships were more permanently attached, and needed additional lines for the bonnets?
 
In my opinion I think sails should be rigged for best appearance on a model, not necessarily totally accurate, as rigging has and can be changed by each Captain of the ship, and your the Captain of your ships.
 
Kurt Konrath said:
In my opinion I think sails should be rigged for best appearance on a model, not necessarily totally accurate, as rigging has and can be changed by each Captain of the ship, and your the Captain of your ships.
Click to expand...
True enough. And who is to say that the sails may be in the process of moving to the correct and final position.
 
This may help you a bit. Sorry, it's in French, but the pictures are OK. I would have the Bonaventura furled, the mizzen squared off as far as the shrouds allow, much more horizontal and the sheet brought forward, about halfway to the mast. This way, the sail would not only draw better, but also lift the ship a little. How to put a decent belly into the model sail, I can't say right out.
 

Attachments

  • La Pratique de la Voile Latine.pdf
    14.2 MB · Views: 88
Signet said:
The bonnets are a quandary. I've done quite a few searches, with little information. The following illustration indicates the bonnet was added, then normal rigging lines attached at the clew (clew, sheet and tacks):
View attachment 413838
But the photograph above seems to show those lines attached to the clew of the main sail, so they would never be removed or changed, and at least one additional line to the clew of the bonnet. Perhaps early ships like this one, which used toggles to connect to the clews, might be moved to the bonnet, while later ships were more permanently attached, and needed additional lines for the bonnets?
Click to expand...
Actually, the above diagram is probably not the best to use, considering the Clewlines are labeled as Sheets, and the Leechlines are mislabeled as Clewlines. Such a shame that a well-done drawing is so wrong.
 
My understanding is in actual practice the sails are adjusted to balance the helm so as to not have to fight the movement of the ship. Thus they would be positioned such that it would have a very slight windward force. That depends on where the center of resistance is in relation to where the center of force (sails) are. The best captains know their ship and how to maintain the best speed and helm balance. However on a model ship the position of the sails are for appearance, so use your own thoughts.
 
Displaying sails on a ship model is more for visual pleasure than any concept of real time set. I have done two different sail sets…one with the sails in a traditional 90 degree to the mast, and once with the sails canted to 45 degrees to the mast. I think I liked the 45 degree set better. My next model rigged with sails I will do the 45 degree set.
 
This all bears some study on my part just to catch up. So far, it's above my pay grade. :rolleyes:
I know that Jerry Todd has real word experience with the real thing. You might consider contacting the Kalmar Nykel Organization for help with these details.
 
Being new to the forum i apologize in advance if my comment isn't what you're looking for. I once wanted to sail aboard a square rigger and so I set to learning how to crew the vessel. Attached is a very complete summary of the physics of how the sails work aboard a square rigged ship. Perhaps this might answer your question.
 

Attachments

  • Square-Rig-Sailing.pdf
    437.5 KB · Views: 37
Signet said:
The bonnets are a quandary. I've done quite a few searches, with little information. The following illustration indicates the bonnet was added, then normal rigging lines attached at the clew (clew, sheet and tacks):
View attachment 413838
But the photograph above seems to show those lines attached to the clew of the main sail, so they would never be removed or changed, and at least one additional line to the clew of the bonnet. Perhaps early ships like this one, which used toggles to connect to the clews, might be moved to the bonnet, while later ships were more permanently attached, and needed additional lines for the bonnets?
Click to expand...
So many of these lables are WRONG.
Labled as clew lines, these are the leech lines, 'sheets' are the clew lines!
 
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