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Advice on rigging.

Janmal

Janmal

Joined
Jul 23, 2021
Messages
16
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58

From my previous wooden ship, I learned that the standing rigging was thick, black, and the running rigging light (beige) coloured (HMS Endeavour, Artesania Latina).
The ship that I am currently building (Halifax, Constructo), provided the following rope:
  • Fine rigging thread, 0.25 mm, brass
  • Fine rigging thread, 0.50 mm, hemp
  • Thick rigging thread, 0.75 mm, hemp
  • Fine rigging thread, black, 0.50 mm, tarred
  • Thick rigging thread, black, 0.75 mm, tarred.
I can get a rough idea of where the thich tarred rope goes, but not sure where the 0.5 mm tarred goes.. Similarly, some of the rigging obviously must be the thin hemp, but unsure of where I use the thick hemp. No idea of where the brass thread goes.

Advice will be greatly appreciated.

Jan Malherbe
 
Janmal said:
From my previous wooden ship, I learned that the standing rigging was thick, black, and the running rigging light (beige) coloured (HMS Endeavour, Artesania Latina).
The ship that I am currently building (Halifax, Constructo), provided the following rope:
  • Fine rigging thread, 0.25 mm, brass
  • Fine rigging thread, 0.50 mm, hemp
  • Thick rigging thread, 0.75 mm, hemp
  • Fine rigging thread, black, 0.50 mm, tarred
  • Thick rigging thread, black, 0.75 mm, tarred.
I can get a rough idea of where the thich tarred rope goes, but not sure where the 0.5 mm tarred goes.. Similarly, some of the rigging obviously must be the thin hemp, but unsure of where I use the thick hemp. No idea of where the brass thread goes.

Advice will be greatly appreciated.

Jan Malherbe
Click to expand...
Janmal, the thickest ropes on the ship are the bottom steps and cables (not counting the anchor rope). The higher from the deck, the thinner the ropes. There are tables on the Internet for calculating the thickness of the rigging for each tackle. True, in the set (as in many manufacturers), the set of threads is limited to minimum values. To build the correct rigging on your ship, the size of the threads will be very large. If you cannot make the rigging yourself, then the kit instructions should probably indicate which thread is needed for what.
 
Occasionally a kit may not have enough line to finish the model unless you are careful not to waste any. It's something to be prepared for. As Alexander74 said, you may find that in your research on rigging, other sizes of line may be more appropriate, in between the sizes provided in the kit. There are suppliers for rigging line available, should you need any.
 
Janmal said:
From my previous wooden ship, I learned that the standing rigging was thick, black, and the running rigging light (beige) coloured (HMS Endeavour, Artesania Latina).
The ship that I am currently building (Halifax, Constructo), provided the following rope:
  • Fine rigging thread, 0.25 mm, brass
  • Fine rigging thread, 0.50 mm, hemp
  • Thick rigging thread, 0.75 mm, hemp
  • Fine rigging thread, black, 0.50 mm, tarred
  • Thick rigging thread, black, 0.75 mm, tarred.
I can get a rough idea of where the thich tarred rope goes, but not sure where the 0.5 mm tarred goes.. Similarly, some of the rigging obviously must be the thin hemp, but unsure of where I use the thick hemp. No idea of where the brass thread goes.

Advice will be greatly appreciated.

Jan Malherbe
Click to expand...
It depends on the type of ship, year of construction and other dates. The resulting load is always decisive. The main mast diameter on the deck is usually taken as the starting point, from which the percentage diameter is calculated. You can find tables for example at Mondfeld. As always, this is only a guide.
 
Danny Vadas created an excellent Masting and Rigging Calculation Spreadsheet that allows you to plug in the scale and size of the ship for a calculation of what size each line should be. This is a fantastic resource that utilizes standard calculations and historical resources (e.g., Lees, Masting and Rigging).
This may be a bit more detail that you would need, given your five sizes of line, but it should you give a good idea of which of your lines are intended to be used where.
 
Brewbrarian said:
Danny Vadas created an excellent Masting and Rigging Calculation Spreadsheet that allows you to plug in the scale and size of the ship for a calculation of what size each line should be. This is a fantastic resource that utilizes standard calculations and historical resources (e.g., Lees, Masting and Rigging).
This may be a bit more detail that you would need, given your five sizes of line, but it should you give a good idea of which of your lines are intended to be used where.
Click to expand...
These are excellent sources for ships/boats within the past few centuries but when we go back to the Byzantine, Iron Age, and Bronze Ages it is speculation primarily. There were a few blocks and deadeyes recovered from sunken wrecks from which line sizes can be estimated but those are without actual recovered mast/yard fragments so loads are unknown. It is an interesting study area: underwater archaeology. There are few kits out there and even less number of models being built. Rich (PT-2)
 
Brewbrarian said:
Danny Vadas created an excellent Masting and Rigging Calculation Spreadsheet that allows you to plug in the scale and size of the ship for a calculation of what size each line should be. This is a fantastic resource that utilizes standard calculations and historical resources (e.g., Lees, Masting and Rigging).
This may be a bit more detail that you would need, given your five sizes of line, but it should you give a good idea of which of your lines are intended to be used where.
Click to expand...
Halle Eric, I didn't know that before, thank you very much for the information. It should be noted that this is the calculation for English ships. There are of course big differences to other nations, whereby the question remains whether this is really relevant for us model builders at scales of 1:50 or 1: 100.
 
Mash said:
the question remains whether this is really relevant for us model builders at scales of 1:50 or 1: 100.
Click to expand...
Hi @Mash ,
I don't know if you saw the portion of the spreadsheet where it allows you to enter the scale of your particular build. Thus, you can calculate, for example what the mainstay would be for a 60 foot ship with an 18 foot beam at 1:50 scale--or you could do it at 1:100 scale. So we can indeed account for scale of our various models here, and I think the spreadsheet, leaning as it does on Lees' aggregation of the various codified establishments, gives us an excellent reference for relative line sizes.

Jan's original question was regarding the Halifax of 1768, which, as a ship of the Royal Navy would be well-represented by the figures in the spreadsheet. While some minor differences may exist in relative line sizes between nations or between "establishments", I would expect that most for most modelers, those small differences, when further reduced to scale, are unlikely to be of concern.
 
Brewbrarian said:
Hi @Mash ,
I don't know if you saw the portion of the spreadsheet where it allows you to enter the scale of your particular build. Thus, you can calculate, for example what the mainstay would be for a 60 foot ship with an 18 foot beam at 1:50 scale--or you could do it at 1:100 scale. So we can indeed account for scale of our various models here, and I think the spreadsheet, leaning as it does on Lees' aggregation of the various codified establishments, gives us an excellent reference for relative line sizes.

Jan's original question was regarding the Halifax of 1768, which, as a ship of the Royal Navy would be well-represented by the figures in the spreadsheet. While some minor differences may exist in relative line sizes between nations or between "establishments", I would expect that most for most modelers, those small differences, when further reduced to scale, are unlikely to be of concern.
Click to expand...
Hi Eric, yes, I tried the spreadsheet. As I said, a fine and useful thing. So far I had to do calculations using the Mondfeld tables. This is where my remark related that there are major differences when it comes to nations. Whether and how the respective model maker would like to or can implement this is of course always a subjective decision. Like the color of the rigging, also a much discussed topic. I keep reading "tarred black" for models from the 15th to 16th centuries. The chemical treatment of tar had not yet been invented, the tar at that time was a very dark dirty brown, as archaeological finds show. Of course, rigging looks a lot more attractive if it conforms to this pattern. Shitty brown doesn't look that great, admittedly;)
 
I look at the numbers, in mm, and we are talking numbers like 0.1 mm to maybe a couple of mm for the thicker ropes. I wonder therefore how the differences between nations would affect these numbers given that we are talking about fractions of a mm? Just a question. that's all.
 
Jack Sparrow said:
I look at the numbers, in mm, and we are talking numbers like 0.1 mm to maybe a couple of mm for the thicker ropes. I wonder therefore how the differences between nations would affect these numbers given that we are talking about fractions of a mm? Just a question. that's all.
Click to expand...
You can see it like that. As I have already tried to explain, the dimensions refer to the mainstay (= 100%). That is 0.166% of the diameter of the main mast on the deck. 16th - 18th century. After that, masts and poles got higher and higher, the ropes logically stronger and stronger. This information is based on official documents such as contracts, construction contracts and Admiralty. Differences between 20% and 90% are between 16./17. and 19th century available. These are all just conjectures and assumptions, because up until the 19th century ONLY the captain was responsible for the rigging. Thaw strengths, material - exclusively his decision. And he was liable to the owner and the crew. From this one can deduce that there cannot have been any universal equipment. Source: Mondfeld Encyclopedia Volume 9
 
Janmal said:
From my previous wooden ship, I learned that the standing rigging was thick, black, and the running rigging light (beige) coloured (HMS Endeavour, Artesania Latina).
The ship that I am currently building (Halifax, Constructo), provided the following rope:
  • Fine rigging thread, 0.25 mm, brass
  • Fine rigging thread, 0.50 mm, hemp
  • Thick rigging thread, 0.75 mm, hemp
  • Fine rigging thread, black, 0.50 mm, tarred
  • Thick rigging thread, black, 0.75 mm, tarred.
I can get a rough idea of where the thich tarred rope goes, but not sure where the 0.5 mm tarred goes.. Similarly, some of the rigging obviously must be the thin hemp, but unsure of where I use the thick hemp. No idea of where the brass thread goes.

Advice will be greatly appreciated.

Jan Malherbe
Click to expand...
Little off topic, but I need help. Do you still have the rigging plans for Endeavor. I was given the model but that sheet was missing and I am stuck without it. Please contact me at bobc622@mac.com. Thanks.
 
Mash said:
Hi Eric, yes, I tried the spreadsheet. As I said, a fine and useful thing. So far I had to do calculations using the Mondfeld tables. This is where my remark related that there are major differences when it comes to nations. Whether and how the respective model maker would like to or can implement this is of course always a subjective decision. Like the color of the rigging, also a much discussed topic. I keep reading "tarred black" for models from the 15th to 16th centuries. The chemical treatment of tar had not yet been invented, the tar at that time was a very dark dirty brown, as archaeological finds show. Of course, rigging looks a lot more attractive if it conforms to this pattern. Shitty brown doesn't look that great, admittedly;)
Click to expand...
It's interesting that a lot of models use one color for the standing rigging and another for the running rigging. Definitely nor period correct based on your readings.
 
I believe .5mm light coloured rope is for all the running rigging, it's what the sailors handled. Standing rigging for shrouds, stays etc are much thicker, probably around 1-1.5mm or thicker , depending on your scale. The proper colour is probably dark brown, as the tar on the rope was from tree sap, black is used in many kits , because it's an easy colour. Although, kits with cheap cotton do have a brown colour. Do your research, look into making your own rope, so rewarding and you control the size of every rope/colour. Homemade ropes from polyester have no frizz and are very strong. I see beautiful models with cheap cotton rope and I just cringe but that's just me. Just an amateur in early stages of modelling. Good luck.P1050511.JPG
 
frankieg said:
I believe .5mm light coloured rope is for all the running rigging, it's what the sailors handled. Standing rigging for shrouds, stays etc are much thicker, probably around 1-1.5mm or thicker , depending on your scale. The proper colour is probably dark brown, as the tar on the rope was from tree sap, black is used in many kits , because it's an easy colour. Although, kits with cheap cotton do have a brown colour. Do your research, look into making your own rope, so rewarding and you control the size of every rope/colour. Homemade ropes from polyester have no frizz and are very strong. I see beautiful models with cheap cotton rope and I just cringe but that's just me. Just an amateur in early stages of modelling. Good luck.View attachment 266053
Click to expand...
I agree 100%.
 
Hi Bobc622, Yes! I still have all th Endeavour instructions, tattered and torn after almost 40 years, but complete, I'll mail you separately as to how to get them to you as postal service in South Africa, as far as I know, has almost totally collapsed.

To all that have commented on my enquiry regarding the rigging, my sincerest thanks - I've learned a lot! However, the point of my question has been largely missed. Constructo DID provide all the rope and thread in my list (see again below); If it had only been one thickness of black and one of hemp, I would have had no problem: running and standing. but now there are thick and thin ones of both, as well as the brass.

Rope PROVIDED by Constructo, with lengths (their description):
  • Fine rigging thread, 0.25 mm, brass. 3 m.
  • Fine rigging thread, 0.50 mm, hemp. 75 m.
  • Thick rigging thread, 0.75 mm, hemp. 30 m.
  • Fine rigging thread, black, 0.50 mm, tarred. 15 m.
  • Thick rigging thread, black, 0.75 mm, tarred. 25 m.
Finally. How do I get rid of the "J" in my correspondence, and replace it with some icon?
Jan
 
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