CAF-HMS FLY 1776 1:48

Gennaro said:
I'm lost at sea here - where is the truth? This is what David Antscherl posted few hours ago:

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Yes,Tom was in contact I guess with David Antscherl ,so they have to discuss this between them ,maybe Tom misunderstood how copyrights work .
 
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Hello all,

I should note that CAF's model is NOT using David Antscherl's Swan class plans. I met Tom in Shanghai last month and he is working to only produce original works. He told me he was developing a kit of HMS Fly, and I warned him that some will accuse him of using David's plans. Tom says he is developing the kit using his own research and he has provided evidence of that to me. I gave David a "heads up" about any potential misunderstandings and David said that Tom is free to develop a kit of a Swan Class as long as it was based on Tom's own original research and that Tom lofted the frames and timbers himself.

This is what Tom is referring to when he wrote, "I have contacted Mr. David and got permission to build my HMS fly".

I provide this clarification because Tom must rely on Chinese-English translation programs and often meaning gets lost or garbled,

David has been very kind and helpful in encouraging kit developers such as Tom to create original kits.

Cheers,

Kerry

Kerry Jang
Vancouver, Canada.
 
WELL SAID CAF MODELS YOUR WORK SPEAKS FOR ITSELF, JUST FANTASTIC WORK AND DEVLOPMENT, AS BEFORE YOU AND TRIDENT ARE THE FUTURE SOME WILL TRY TO STOP YOU BECAUSE THEY CAN NOT DO WHAT YOU DO BUT YOU HAVE SUPPORT. THANKS Don
 
Sometimes a lot is lost in translation :-). We live in a small world now but our languages are sometimes miles apart. Google translate is a beautiful tool but never translates the small finesse of local phrasing. Luckily this is cleared.
Looking forward to the model, looks very promissing sofar.
 
I too look forward to CAF's interpretation of this lovely little full rugged ship. It is near and dear to my heart, having spent over a decade building one of the ships in her class. I do believe CAF when he says he is working from the original NMM plans. I would just point out, however, that when you purchase NMM plans you agree to use them for your own research or to build a model based on them. If you use the NMM plans to develop a new kit for commercial sale, however, they charge a Royalty fee which is generally negotiated between the purchaser and the NMM. We, Admiralty Models, did this over a decade ago when we purchased their plans in order to develop a set of our own for sale. This agreement benefited both us and the NMM. The argument that one is developing their own set of plans from the NMM plans and is therefore completely original is fallacious because the new plans could not be developed without the original NMM plans. We're not talking about Constitutions or Victories here but new, original plans for newly developed commercial kits. The NMM is very protective of their plans and if they learn that new projects are being developed without prior Royalty arrangements then I fear our ability to access them will be hampered in the future and all ship modelers will suffer the consequences.
 
dvm27 said:
I too look forward to CAF's interpretation of this lovely little full rugged ship. It is near and dear to my heart, having spent over a decade building one of the ships in her class. I do believe CAF when he says he is working from the original NMM plans. I would just point out, however, that when you purchase NMM plans you agree to use them for your own research or to build a model based on them. If you use the NMM plans to develop a new kit for commercial sale, however, they charge a Royalty fee which is generally negotiated between the purchaser and the NMM. We, Admiralty Models, did this over a decade ago when we purchased their plans in order to develop a set of our own for sale. This agreement benefited both us and the NMM. The argument that one is developing their own set of plans from the NMM plans and is therefore completely original is fallacious because the new plans could not be developed without the original NMM plans. We're not talking about Constitutions or Victories here but new, original plans for newly developed commercial kits. The NMM is very protective of their plans and if they learn that new projects are being developed without prior Royalty arrangements then I fear our ability to access them will be hampered in the future and all ship modelers will suffer the consequences.
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As far as I know this is not a kit or sold anywhere,just in scratch build stage,so therefore no infrigiment happened.
 
What kit? Has anyone seen a kit for sale? I can build any ship I want, from any plans I choose, by any fabrication method I decide, using any materials I select. We are in the middle of the "Information Age" people. Things have changed. The internet gives us access to information like never before. There are tons of free images, drawings, plans and such readily available for anyone who wants to scratch build. There is no world-wide authority that controls this... it's all bunk! If the NMM is concerned that is their business, not ours ...

For myself... I will not allow any of this rhetoric to get in the way of building any model I want to build. If CAF makes some cool stuff and I decide I like it, I may buy it!! Who is going to stop me?

I recently made some CNC cannon.. I suppose someone may claim it would be illegal for me to sell them. Such bull...

How about this cool little compass cabinet I drew up, cut out on my laser, and assembled... can't remember where I first saw it.. I could make 50 of them and give them away, in multiple scales!!!!

IMG_1724.JPG
 
HI MIKE THANK YOU FOR SAYING WHAT I FEEL, I HAVE ALWAYS SAID IF SOMEONE DOES NOT LIKE TO BUILD A CERTAIN SHIP FOR WHATEVER REASON, I RESPECT THAT, NOW WHY DO YOU NOT GIVE ME THE SAME COURTSY LIKE MIKE I WILL BUILD WHAT I LIKE FROM WHEREVER ANY WAY I CAN, GIVE ME THE SAME COURTSY AS I GIVE YOU, PLEASE RESPECTFULY STAY OUT OF MY BUISNESS,,,,,,,,,BRAVO MIKE BRAVO. Don
 
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ok there is NO mention of CAF creating a kit seems some folks jumped to an unfounded conclusion AGAIN

I met Tom in Shanghai last month and he is working to only produce original works. He told me he was developing a kit of HMS Fly

I do not know who Tom is and there is mention of a kit but that has nothing what so ever to do with CAF unless tom owns CAF models which can be cleared up real fast.
 
if CAF models wants to offer a kit from the Swan Class the Kingfisher is available

as far as pirating that is not going to happen i can step in and arrange a deal with the Hahn estate and CAF models for a kit based on the Hahn drawings yes there will be a royalty but it is very reasonable
 
IT IS STARTING AGAIN JUST A DIFFERENT WAY, WE ALL NO WHO POSTED THIS, AGAIN LEAVE US BE, BUILD WHAT YOU LIKE OR DO NOT BUILD WHAT YOU DO NOT LIKE< GIVE ME THE SAME COURTSY AS I GIVE YOU NOW STAY OUT OF MY BUSINESS, AS I STAY OUT OF YOURS. DON
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
if CAF models wants to offer a kit from the Swan Class the Kingfisher is available

as far as pirating that is not going to happen i can step in and arrange a deal with the Hahn estate and CAF models for a kit based on the Hahn drawings yes there will be a royalty but it is very reasonable
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Very good idea Dave!!
 
what is nice about it you do not have to be concerned with Greg Herbert's rhetoric about NMM the plans are from Harold Hahn and not from NMM

yes the plans have a copyright by the Hahn estate but like I said arrangements can be made to turn it into a Swan Class kit. Nobody owns rights to the Swan Class ships.
 
Agree completely, Zoly. But I note that the topic is listed under the New Kits and Developments section on SOS, not the Scratch Built section, hence my confusion.

Bravo to you, Dave, for showing that Copyright plans are available and can be purchased for development of a new project. The Hahn estate has every right to a royalty from this brilliant artist's work. The NMM also incurs considerable cost to host, digitize and maintain their magnificent collection. They deserve our support as well.

Not in your business, Don. Build whatever you like. We both have the same goal - to promote the continued growth of this great hobby. But I would just point out that one of the most prolific, highly respected and original authors of new and original subjects on this side of the Atlantic is seriously rethinking any further research and publishing. For some people this is a hobby, for others it is a livelihood and they rely on the income. When their work shows up elsewhere and others profit from it without them being compensated their incentive to develop new projects is gone and the hobby in general suffers.

I shall now recede into the background and follow some of magnificent builds taking place on this site. I believe CAF's heart is in the right place and enough has been written about this topic!
 
dvm27 said:
Agree completely, Zoly. But I note that the topic is listed under the New Kits and Developments section on SOS, not the Scratch Built section, hence my confusion.

Bravo to you, Dave, for showing that Copyright plans are available and can be purchased for development of a new project. The Hahn estate has every right to a royalty from this brilliant artist's work. The NMM also incurs considerable cost to host, digitize and maintain their magnificent collection. They deserve our support as well.

Not in your business, Don. Build whatever you like. We both have the same goal - to promote the continued growth of this great hobby. But I would just point out that one of the most prolific, highly respected and original authors of new and original subjects on this side of the Atlantic is seriously rethinking any further research and publishing. For some people this is a hobby, for others it is a livelihood and they rely on the income. When their work shows up elsewhere and others profit from it without them being compensated their incentive to develop new projects is gone and the hobby in general suffers.

I shall now recede into the background and follow some of magnificent builds taking place on this site. I believe CAF's heart is in the right place and enough has been written about this topic!
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believe me Greg, CAF is a good guy,just had some hard time to understand how copyrights works.
 
I understand why there may be possible confusion Greg due to the topic this is in.I would mention though that Tom from CAF models posted his own scratchbuild in this section by mistake due to the language barrier.
If Tom plans to produce a kit of this class of vessel,I feel it is more beneficial to educate Tom in how best to proceed,rather than curse or chastise.I do applaud you Greg for bring an air of civilised discussion to this subject,as opposed to what we have endured before.
Tom does manufacture some outstanding kits,surely it is more productive to steer him in the right direction?

Kind Regards

Nigel
 
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