Copper plating

[Roger Pellett]

Sorry, but it looks like your copper plates have a bad case of warts! IMHO they are unusable.

The current ship model opinion seems to be to start with a simple model kit and then “learn” by building more complicated kits. I disagree. Modern ship model kits are so highly engineered that assembling one only teaches you the skills to build more kits. Many forum members, therefore, wind up with huge stashes of kits, representing an investment that could otherwise have equipped a nice workshop or reference library.

So! Since you are bogged down, why not experiment a little. For example, I have long thought about simulating copper sheathing with paper painted with different color tones to look like weathering. If your experiment fails, you have at least learned something.

Roger

 

[Ted Robinson]

I have carefully modeleed each plank through eight rows with the exception of the center sect where I went full width.
I find one side is 1.5+mm higher than the other. Approximately one half a plank. I thought that the variance in plank widths would average out but so far they haven't.
Maybe they would

Ted! How do those measurements match with the standard copper panel of 18" x 48"? (That's right isn't it? Not 12" x 48"?) I was lucky that Blue Jacket had 3/16" wide tape for my 1:96 scale ship. so I had my 18 inches in width and only needed half-inch long "plates" to have the proper length.

Thoughts on coppering: On one hand, if she was coppered, there's an argument for coppering. BTW, what ship? Not MSW Syren by chance? She's a 1:64 scale model that calls for coppering and provides plans for a jig to simulate the nail heads. I've seen versions of this. They came out very well, but too busy for my taste. I don't know if it was nightmarish for the modeler, but I think the models would have looked better without the simulated nail heads. On the other hand, and this is the important one, you should spend your time doing something you really want to be doing. Plenty of our shipmates move on to other projects and them move back (or not) because they want a break and/or have stopped enjoying the project. Given your penultimate sentence, which I hope is not in earnest, perhaps the right call is to shelve this project and build the ship you're looking forward to building. God bless us all, indeed. Amen!

Blessings.
Chuck

Thank you. My model is the HMS Jalouse. I'm thinking the actual copper plates must have been overlapped because a butt joint could be consistent enough to provide protection from the marine flora and worms. So just for my personal knowledge shouldn't the plates be overlapped as shown in the attached photos or just butt jointed. I see from just setting up my demo photo that the overlapping is much more difficult to achieve.

 

[The Gavel]

I have carefully modeleed each plank through eight rows with the exception of the center sect where I went full width.
I find one side is 1.5+mm higher than the other. Approximately one half a plank. I thought that the variance in plank widths would average out but so far they haven't.
Maybe they would

Thank you. My model is the HMS Jalouse. I'm thinking the actual copper plates must have been overlapped because a butt joint could be consistent enough to provide protection from the marine flora and worms. So just for my personal knowledge shouldn't the plates be overlapped as shown in the attached photos or just butt jointed. I see from just setting up my demo photo that the overlapping is much more difficult to achieve.View attachment 503767

Ted! Good question! The plates overlapped a bit, like shingles on a roof. The overlap wasn't quite as heavy as in your second picture. The kit designers may have had that level of overlap in mind "to make it easy on the builder", but that's too much and I suspect it may look bulky on a complete hull. Here's a couple of shots of my process - I hope it's ok to share. The light really picks out the overlap shining from overhead on the bottom of the hull. Really its less than 1/32nd" and almost disappears when the bottom is down. Also, if you are going ahead with coppering, never touch the copper with bare hands. I used a box of latex gloves to get this part of the work done and have been pretty successful ever since not to put my naked fingers on the copper.

 

[Ted Robinson]

Ted! Good question! The plates overlapped a bit, like shingles on a roof. The overlap wasn't quite as heavy as in your second picture. The kit designers may have had that level of overlap in mind "to make it easy on the builder", but that's too much and I suspect it may look bulky on a complete hull. Here's a couple of shots of my process - I hope it's ok to share. The light really picks out the overlap shining from overhead on the bottom of the hull. Really its less than 1/32nd" and almost disappears when the bottom is down. Also, if you are going ahead with coppering, never touch the copper with bare hands. I used a box of latex gloves to get this part of the work done and have been pretty successful ever since not to put my naked fingers on the copper.

View attachment 503768View attachment 503769View attachment 503770

Exquisite execution. I have already touched all of the plates as they came scattered throughout my kit. I wash them in acetone prior to installation.

 

[The Gavel]

Exquisite execution. I have already touched all of the plates as they came scattered throughout my kit. I wash them in acetone prior to installation.

You are much too kind, Ted! Thank you! There are loads of errors I promise you. Well, to avoid having to go through washing them again, gloves will still help out . Do you have a log elsewhere on the forum? I'd love to see your process and progress. I'm sure I'm not alone.

Blessings.
Chuck

 

[Ted Robinson]

You are much too kind, Ted! Thank you! There are loads of errors I promise you. Well, to avoid having to go through washing them again, gloves will still help out . Do you have a log elsewhere on the forum? I'd love to see your process and progress. I'm sure I'm not alone.

Blessings.
Chuck

Yes my current build is HMS Jalouse-Caldercraft by Ted. My previous build log was was in the Bluenose ll group build.
Thank you for your interest.

 

[AllanKP69]

The below is based on the drawings in Peter Goodwin's book The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War. Regarding overlapping, most kit supplied copper is far too thick to do it and have it look right. The raised bumps look like rivets instead of having slight indentations from the nails that were actually used. The thickness as explained by Roger in his earlier post is something to consider.

 

[The Gavel]

The below is based on the drawings in Peter Goodwin's book The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War. Regarding overlapping, most kit supplied copper is far too thick to do it and have it look right. The raised bumps look like rivets instead of having slight indentations from the nails that were actually used. The thickness as explained by Roger in his earlier post is something to consider.
View attachment 503828

Nice work Allan! Ted, I really think you should scrap the kit supplied copper. Those simulated rivets are in the way of a good outcome.

Blessings.
Chuck

 

[Bob Cleek]

Right now I'm pondering how to square off a mast evenly. I purchased a Dremel rotary tool and think I can mill with it if I get an xy table. I don't believe will ever reach historical accuracy but I appreciate it when it is presented.

Reaching "historical accuracy" is only a matter of research. Almost anything one might wish to know can be found in the standard modeling reference books or, often, simply by asking on a forum like this one. (As Allan's post above demonstrates!) Never sell yourself short. I believe anyone can do whatever is technically required if they take the care and time to do it. Unfortunately, most all kits contain inaccuracies, some minor and some glaring, so even for kit builders the game becomes identifying and correcting those. As "The Gavel" above mentioned, finding errors in your kit and correcting them can be most gratifying and add a measure of uniqueness to your model that distinguishes it from the many others built from the same kit.

For an expert's thoughts on kit model accuracy, I found Kroum Batchvarov's YouTube video on the subject enlightening and entertaining:

As for Dremel Mototools, at some point, like many modelers, you may want to move up to a Foredom flex-shaft machine. The drawback to the Dremel is that it relies on speed, rather than torque, for its cutting power. Hence, it doesn't cut well at slow speeds and is difficult to control for fine work at high speeds. Its size is not as ergonomically suitable for fine work as the Foredom's various one-inch diameter handpieces, either. The Foredom flex-shaft relies on torque rather than speed (although it does run fast if one wishes,) so it is much easier to do fine work with it without running the risk of ruining a job with a slight unintentional movement.

If you are interested in an x-y table or an x-y-z drilling and milling setup, which are very nice things to have for accurate modeling work, and you aren't going to take out a second mortgage for a dedicated heavy duty milling machine, I suggest you check out the Vanda-Lay Industries Accura Mill and other products which are powered by a mounted Dremel Mototool. The are CNC machined from solid aluminum billets and are very high quality. (Nobody seems satisfied with the Dremel brand drill press accessory!) I have their drill press and, within the limits of the Mototool, are, I believe, the best option available. If one is so inclined, they will also provide a holder for the 1" Foredom handpieces, which would be the best of all possible worlds until one gets to the point of a proper milling machine.

See: https://vanda-layindustries.com/html/acra_mill_plus.html

 

[Bob Cleek]

Thank you. My model is the HMS Jalouse. I'm thinking the actual copper plates must have been overlapped because a butt joint could be consistent enough to provide protection from the marine flora and worms. So just for my personal knowledge shouldn't the plates be overlapped as shown in the attached photos or just butt jointed. I see from just setting up my demo photo that the overlapping is much more difficult to achieve.

Look at Allan's post at #27 where he's posted the Admiralty's standard sheathing schedule from Peter Goodwin's The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War. Coppering wasn't widely practiced until the last quarter of the 1700's. Like most everything else related to English naval vessels, there were exact specifications for copper sheathing. The copper sheets were always lapped "shingle style" with the "tail" of the "shingle" pointing upward. Butting sheets would not have provided an effective barrier to teredos which enter the wood at their larval stage when they are extremely small. It is important that the plates are lapped in the direction indicated. This is critical so that the danger that plates might tend to be scraped off when the vessel settles in the mud at low tide. Similarly, the laps running fore and aft should always point aft to minimize plates being scraped off if the vessel might run aground or into flotsam.

 

[spotcheem]

While I'm not a fan of "double planking" on POB hulls, the direct answer to the question is "yes." If the second layer of planking is omitted beneath the waterline where the copper sheathing will be installed, the hull will be one planking thickness too small where the copper covers.

What is a POB hull? Sorry, I'm a rookie!

 

[threebs]

I do not have any issues with touching the copper sheets. If it is the finger oils you are worried about, That is nothing wiping the finished hull down with acetone will not cure. It also helps take the shine off the copper. Tape can curl up along the edges over time, I solve this by using a gray primer on the hull where the tape will go. Somehow the adhesive seems to react with the paint to the point that in a few days you would have to scarp it off with a razor blade. At some point when the copper has acquired a sufficient patina I coat it with marine varnish. A light sanding with 1000 grit sand paper and a wipe down with acetone before varnishing will prep the surface so the varnish will adhere to the copper better. A couple of my models are 15 years old and the copper looks just fine.

 

[threebs]

What is a POB hull? Sorry, I'm a rookie!

Plank on bulkhead.

 

[The Gavel]

What is a POB hull? Sorry, I'm a rookie!

POB stands for Plank on Bulkhead. Most kits are POB. There are solid hull kits, POB kits and POF (Plank on Frame) kits. The POF kits take the modelers deep into the world of actual ship construction. If you have time take a look at @dockattner Kingfisher or @GrantTyler Enterprise builds just to name a few. There are a lot of expert modelers with logs of their work from solid hull to plank on frame from kits and the holy of holies plank on frame from scratch.

Blessings.
Chuck

 

[Jim Fortnam]

An interesting thread. Given the prototype appearance after a while in salt water, then a coat of copper colour paint overlaid with verdigris and weathered back to have a mere hint of gleam of copper here and there would be my choice. But then, my aim is to produce a miniature of the ship, and have it look used, but cared for, with the application of weathering over most of it. Even the white painted deckhouses only stayed that way for a very short time before muck built up in the corners, and grime took off the unnatural whiteness.

Equally, not far from here is the home of Armstrong, the arms manufacturer, and builder of metal warships on the Tyne. An original builders model is in a stable stall 'museum' - a warship model make by Basset-Lowke in anticipation of a Japanese delegation calling round to buy a battleship. It is covered in brass and brass wire as deck fittings and looks extremely 'pretty' After I got ov er the horror of it and realised it was made to close the deal, worth 'millions' then it seemed just the thing.
A recording made in the modelling workshop of the time..
Foreman. "Reet lads, get on wi' t' model. Never mind the sizes, get the brass shiny
Worker. "What shall I do with this gun barrel sir?"
Foreman. "A gun barrel? - It will look prettier of we chrome it. Get them all out to be plated, and polish 'em up when you fit 'em. You know they're attracted to shiny things. We get bonus for it looking pretty"

... The recording stops before the visit, unfortunately, but wasn't Armstrong's the only ship yard that provided warships for both sides in some sea battle league match Japan vs Russia sometime in the 1800's?

Jim

 

[Ted Robinson]

What is a POB hull? Sorry, I'm a rookie!

Plank on bulkhead. They are used in most kits providing the shape of the hull.
POF Is plank on frames. Much more closely spaced and shared as the actual frames of the ship

 

[Ted Robinson]

Reaching "historical accuracy" is only a matter of research. Almost anything one might wish to know can be found in the standard modeling reference books or, often, simply by asking on a forum like this one. (As Allan's post above demonstrates!) Never sell yourself short. I believe anyone can do whatever is technically required if they take the care and time to do it. Unfortunately, most all kits contain inaccuracies, some minor and some glaring, so even for kit builders the game becomes identifying and correcting those. As "The Gavel" above mentioned, finding errors in your kit and correcting them can be most gratifying and add a measure of uniqueness to your model that distinguishes it from the many others built from the same kit.

For an expert's thoughts on kit model accuracy, I found Kroum Batchvarov's YouTube video on the subject enlightening and entertaining:

As for Dremel Mototools, at some point, like many modelers, you may want to move up to a Foredom flex-shaft machine. The drawback to the Dremel is that it relies on speed, rather than torque, for its cutting power. Hence, it doesn't cut well at slow speeds and is difficult to control for fine work at high speeds. Its size is not as ergonomically suitable for fine work as the Foredom's various one-inch diameter handpieces, either. The Foredom flex-shaft relies on torque rather than speed (although it does run fast if one wishes,) so it is much easier to do fine work with it without running the risk of ruining a job with a slight unintentional movement.

If you are interested in an x-y table or an x-y-z drilling and milling setup, which are very nice things to have for accurate modeling work, and you aren't going to take out a second mortgage for a dedicated heavy duty milling machine, I suggest you check out the Vanda-Lay Industries Accura Mill and other products which are powered by a mounted Dremel Mototool. The are CNC machined from solid aluminum billets and are very high quality. (Nobody seems satisfied with the Dremel brand drill press accessory!) I have their drill press and, within the limits of the Mototool, are, I believe, the best option available. If one is so inclined, they will also provide a holder for the 1" Foredom handpieces, which would be the best of all possible worlds until one gets to the point of a proper milling machine.

See: https://vanda-layindustries.com/html/acra_mill_plus.html

That a nice machine. maybe I'll put it in my Christmas wishlist

 

[Ted Robinson]

I do not have any issues with touching the copper sheets. If it is the finger oils you are worried about, That is nothing wiping the finished hull down with acetone will not cure. It also helps take the shine off the copper. Tape can curl up along the edges over time, I solve this by using a gray primer on the hull where the tape will go. Somehow the adhesive seems to react with the paint to the point that in a few days you would have to scarp it off with a razor blade. At some point when the copper has acquired a sufficient patina I coat it with marine varnish. A light sanding with 1000 grit sand paper and a wipe down with acetone before varnishing will prep the surface so the varnish will adhere to the copper better. A couple of my models are 15 years old and the copper looks just fine.

Thank you. That will save some time and effort

 

[danielsje]

Hmmm…I tend to take a simplistic approach…I will plank the whole hull either single or double planked as called for. Then I prep the hull with paint…the paint gives a clean surface to adhere the copper to. The paint color I use is the color called for on the upper hull above the copper line. If no paint color is called for then I default to a coating of clear polyurethane. Then I lay on the copper.

 

[Ted Robinson]

Hmmm…I tend to take a simplistic approach…I will plank the whole hull either single or double planked as called for. Then I prep the hull with paint…the paint gives a clean surface to adhere the copper to. The paint color I use is the color called for on the upper hull above the copper line. If no paint color is called for then I default to a coating of clear polyurethane. Then I lay on the copper.

Thank you. I'll follow your advice