Copper

[seadeep]

I'll add my two cents worth (okay, now a nickel's worth, since we finally got rid of pennies)...

It's somewhat related, in that from my experience it does seem adhesive backed products will adhere a long time... IF, and that's a big IF... the adhesive is decent and the surface to which they're applied it properly prepared. By that I mean clean, dust and oil free. Smoother is better than rough.

What I base this on is some scale cannon kits I purchased from Model Expo nearly forty years ago. Each was built on a small wooden platform base, and the name of the cannon was applied to the facing edge of that base. The name was printed on a metal tape, which appears to be glossy gold/bronze in colour. I just checked all six of them as they're sitting on a shelf in my study right behind me as I typed this. I've checked all three and the adhesive backed metal tape is still secure on each of the six. No curling edges. No lifting. All I can say is that he wood was sanded smooth, and sealed with a Floquil product before the strips were applied.

I too have been haunted by this same concern regarding the Chinese embossed copper tape product. When I completed by center mast cross sections for the Victory and Constitution, I originally painted the hull with a copper enamel paint. Many, many years later, I came across the copper tape product and purchased eight rolls of the stuff... enough to do the two cross sections, and the hull of the Corel Victory of the same scale as the cross section. So I worry about how well the tape will bond to the hull, and how to ensure I don't leave a boatload (pun intended) of fingerprints on the copper for CSI techs to discover. I still don't know for certain how I'll deal with the latter issue, aside from perhaps putting on a clear sealant coat of some sort. But for the copper strips adhering in the long run, what I've decided is that if they do start to come off, that means the glue will have dried out and deteriorated. My thinking is that a light sanding, cleaning, and application of a wood sealant finish will deal with it. IF I have to deal with it.

 

[AllanKP69]

Thanks MunroIII Looks like I was off at least a decimal point. Very thin Foil is about the only material that will be near scale.
Allan

 

[Van]

A source for adhesive-backed copper tapes is found in stained glass suppliers/shops. I cannot attest to how long or how well it wil adhere over time. In stained glass uses, it gets soldered. It is usually available in several different widths.

I have some lamps where the soldered foil has lasted fifty years or more. The foil is applied to the edges of each glass piece. The pieces are then held together and the foil is soldered. Once soldered it would be very difficult for the foil to work lose since each piece is tight against its neighbors. I wouldn't be surprised if some real Tiffany lamps have pieces that have held together for more than a century

 

[RogerD]

This thread has been very interesting so I did some research. It has a shelf life before use and a life span after application. The following points were the most common that I found. This is enough to sworry me. It would be great to see photos of self-adhesive copper bottomed models that are five or ten or more years old if any members have had good luck with it regarding lifespan.

Self adhesive copper foil will degrade over time but the lifespan after application depends largely on the environment and quality of the adhesive, Generally, it can last several years when properly applied and stored in a moderate climate, with the potential to degrade faster in humid conditions or with exposure to extreme temperatures, or direct sunlight.

Key factors affecting longevity:
High-quality adhesives with strong bonding properties will last longer than cheaper options.

Surface cleanliness: Applying to a clean, dust-free surface maximizes adhesion.


Exposure to household or other chemicals: Certain chemicals can damage the copper foil and adhesive.

Signs of degradation:
Peeling edges: If the copper foil starts to lift at the edges, it may be nearing the end of its lifespan.

Discoloration: Tarnished or oxidized copper indicates potential degradation.

Some interesting, thought provoking and relevant points in your post Allan.

I, like many of us, do not know about the longevity of the copper foil (tape) we use on our models but you mention lifespan after application. A very valid point but when we consider how we construct our models I wonder if the degradation of copper tape manifests any more than other components. For example, you mention exposure to different climate conditions including sunlight. Yet many of us use polyprop rope-work on our builds without a thought to its well known relatively fast degradation in sunlight. I agree quality of the tape and adhesive, in particular, is a major factor. However, no matter the quality and reliability of the adhesive poor sub-surface preparation will obviously set us up for probable failure. You rightly mention a clean, dust-free surface but ensuring the hull surface is very smooth is also important. I used a gloss water based varnish as a sealant to enhance the holding properties of the copper tape.

With your mention of exposure to household or other chemicals I assume you mean during the storage phase of the product. Sealed or closed storage would alleviate this issue to a certain extent. If you mean after the model is constructed then I have already taken preemptive action and banned anyone from doing household cleaning anywhere near the model/s. That might rebound on me though .

Many of us are insular ship builders and rely heavily on the experience of other builders. As we purchase and use new products, which have become available to us, we often do not know the long term suitability of that component. Of course that raises the question of how far into the future do we want our models to last? Our hope is the model will outlive us and remain intact for many years for the enjoyment of others.

As I read back through this last paragraph I will “edit it” in 2035 with an update on the condition of the copper tape at that time. If there is no edit then the tape no doubt outlasted me .

 

[Jim Fortnam]

scale 1/30). There is copper tape or thin copper sheet to buy. What thickness do you recommend? If copper tape/foil is used, then it is glue on the back, does it really last in the long run?

There are a number of variables to think about before you can get to the right answer for you.

Long run? - are you talking museum that expects 150 years or more.
Do you need scale thickness? Accurate thickness for exposed edges? Do you need to show fixings?
Then there are the physical properties of copper.
It can corrode, becoming green goo that vanishes, or maybe you are looking for the patina. And of course, temperature change causes dimensional change. Minute at our scale, but over a hundred years could it crack free of an elderly and in elastic glue?
The characteristics of the glue are all important. I’m pretty sure the tape manufacturers are not thinking of service life in decades.
I have to say that I don’t have an alternative to glue, but take care with the selection.

J

 

[Philski]

I have some lamps where the soldered foil has lasted fifty years or more. The foil is applied to the edges of each glass piece. The pieces are then held together and the foil is soldered. Once soldered it would be very difficult for the foil to work lose since each piece is tight against its neighbors. I wouldn't be surprised if some real Tiffany lamps have pieces that have held together for more than a century

I've done windows, terrariums, and other things but never did a lamp. Stained glass is a whole other hobby.....

 

[Bob Cleek]

This thread has been very interesting so I did some research. It has a shelf life before use and a life span after application. The following points were the most common that I found. This is enough to sworry me. It would be great to see photos of self-adhesive copper bottomed models that are five or ten or more years old if any members have had good luck with it regarding lifespan.

Self adhesive copper foil will degrade over time but the lifespan after application depends largely on the environment and quality of the adhesive, Generally, it can last several years when properly applied and stored in a moderate climate, with the potential to degrade faster in humid conditions or with exposure to extreme temperatures, or direct sunlight.

Key factors affecting longevity:
High-quality adhesives with strong bonding properties will last longer than cheaper options.

Surface cleanliness: Applying to a clean, dust-free surface maximizes adhesion.


Exposure to household or other chemicals: Certain chemicals can damage the copper foil and adhesive.

Signs of degradation:
Peeling edges: If the copper foil starts to lift at the edges, it may be nearing the end of its lifespan.

Discoloration: Tarnished or oxidized copper indicates potential degradation.

Very true. Contact ("rubber") cements generally do not have very long lifespans. They contain rubber or other similar materials which degrade in a relatively short time.

It seems the modern ship modelers' fixation with "real copper" sheathing persists despite the fact that while there have been a few models sheathed in copper which looked attractive, none ever looked like a real copper sheathed bottom looks. Considering the appearance of a real coppered bottom properly to scale, "as built" new or after being submerged for at least a few months, creating a compelling impression of the prototype becomes obviously an exercise in using thin paper and weathering techniques, rather than gluing on copper material.

 

[Tangopapa]

I’m not sure where you plan to use copper on your boat so this may not apply to you BUT:

First of all I am very conservative in using new materials to build my models. For example, for a number of reasons, I don’t use CA glues. As a result, I have models in like new conditions that are over 40 years old. Likewise, I do not use materials secured by pressure sensitive adhesives (PSA). This would include any of the adhesive backed metal tapes.

I am currently building a model of a steel hulled ship. I initially tried to simulate the steel plating with PSA backed brass sheet metal. Long story short, the edges curled up, I put the model aside, and when I resumed work a couple of years later the brass easily peeled off. What I have found does work is shellac saturated paper secured with ordinary Titebond glue. This is one of the Polyvinyl Acetate family of glues. I’m sure that several are available in Sweden. In your case, this can easily then be painted with on of the copper paints.

Roger

I applaud the conservative approach to adhesives on ship models. I recently bought archive grade PVA adhesive. It's stays pH neutral when it cures, so should be kinder to paper and thread over time. I use it diluted for dabbing on rigging knots to keep them from loosening (hopefully).

 

[Walt Zimmerman]

I used contact cement (Weldwood brand) and kept samples. After 48 years, the plates are almost impossible to remove.

 

[Bob Cleek]

I used contact cement (Weldwood brand) and kept samples. After 48 years, the plates are almost impossible to remove.

Lucky you! As the saying goes, "Your mileage may differ."

 

[Bob Cleek]

I applaud the conservative approach to adhesives on ship models. I recently bought archive grade PVA adhesive. It's stays pH neutral when it cures, so should be kinder to paper and thread over time. I use it diluted for dabbing on rigging knots to keep them from loosening (hopefully).

The generally recognized archival-quality "go to" for such purposes (and lots of others) is clear shellac. Premixed shellac (e.g.: Zinsser's Bullseye) is generally a "3 pound cut," (3 pounds of flakes to a gallon of denatured alcohol) and a drop touched onto a knot will soak into the knot and dry as fast as the alcohol evaporates, leaving an invisible bond. It's also good for forming catenaries and shaped coils in rigging line. Also, of course, as an all-purpose sealer and, in heavier (thicker mix) cuts, as an adhesive. Neutral pH and even edible in food-grade types, if you worry about toxicity. Finally, it is easily removed by simply flooding with alcohol and absorbing onto a paper towel or cotton ball. A lot cheaper, too. Available at most all paint and hardware stores. "Old school," but still the museum-quality restorationist's standard choice.