diorama help...scale question

Kramer

Kramer

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Hi,
I'm planning to build a diorama of the Yorktown Battle of the American Revolution. I'm doing it for educational purposes, so I want the students to see the whole layout of the battle. My table will be about 3' x 4'. I have never built a diorama before. I've been looking at lots of videos and websites about building dioramas, just not sure how to figure out what the scale would be, and if there are diorama pieces at that scale I could buy (like houses, troop formations, cannon, etc.) to add detail to the landscape. Anyone have experience building dioramas of this scale? It would look something like this:
IMG_4997.jpeg
Thanks,
Kramer
 
Well, you start off with what the size is of the land you represent and compare it to the actual land it covers. It's hard to tell from the picture, but if a road is 15 feet wide and your diorama road 1/4 inch, you are at 1/720. In other words, your 1/4" = 15' than 1" = 60 feet, or 1" = 720".
The right way to do it would be to measure the distance of the real land mass and compare it to the size you want to build. You need to have them in the same size units to get the actual scale. In other words, feet compared to feet. So if your land mass is in miles , you will need to convert that to feet or inches and compare it to the size of the model.

I hope that gives you some ideas.
If you have more questions, you can ask here and I'll get notified. :)

Jeff
 
Corsair said:
Well, you start off with what the size is of the land you represent and compare it to the actual land it covers. It's hard to tell from the picture, but if a road is 15 feet wide and your diorama road 1/4 inch, you are at 1/720. In other words, your 1/4" = 15' than 1" = 60 feet, or 1" = 720".
The right way to do it would be to measure the distance of the real land mass and compare it to the size you want to build. You need to have them in the same size units to get the actual scale. In other words, feet compared to feet. So if your land mass is in miles , you will need to convert that to feet or inches and compare it to the size of the model.

I hope that gives you some ideas.
If you have more questions, you can ask here and I'll get notified. :)

Jeff
Click to expand...
Using Google Earth you can measure the size of the land, or any features on it. Use the measure tool and make sure your view is directly above the centre of the area you want to measure. Then work out the scale as Corsair says.

As far as buying figures, structures etc is concerned, you want to get close to a common scale in use, such as N scale (1:160), but it looks like you will need to go a lot smaller.

A starting point (with care) for reference is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scale_model_sizes
 
Thank you Jeff and Master's Mate! I'm going to get a colleague to print a pretty accurate map of the area to about a 3' x 4' diorama. Then I'll sketch it out on a piece of plywood or pressboard. I think I'm going to have a hard time finding structures and such for this scale. I'll probably have to make everything I want in the diorama from scratch. Doesn't have to be too detailed as it'll be such an extreme scale. If I could buy some trees and troop formations that would be appropriate to the scale that'd be nice, but I don't think model train shops would have anything that small. I've been searching online, found lots of great tutorials on building dioramas https://www.youtube.com/@GeekGamingScenics and https://www.youtube.com/@LukeTowan. These guys are amazing!
Can't wait to start this project!
 
You may want to look at shapeways.com They produce a large variety of 3d printed articles including miniature soldiers at many different scales. I got a few 1:144 sailors that went perfectly with my !:144 destroyer. I am sure they also sell houses etc.

Rob
 
Rob444 said:
You may want to look at shapeways.com They produce a large variety of 3d printed articles including miniature soldiers at many different scales. I got a few 1:144 sailors that went perfectly with my !:144 destroyer. I am sure they also sell houses etc.

Rob
Click to expand...
Thanks, Rob! Looks like they do custom stuff. I'm sure they can do something to the scale I need. I've never had anything 3D printed before. Is it very expensive to give them a pdf with some scale and get it printed?
 
As Mastersmate suggests, it makes things easier to use a common model railroading scale. There are a lot of items available. Common scales are:
  • O scale 1:48
  • HO scale 1:87
  • N scale: 1:160
  • Z scale: 1:220
Generally, fewer items are available for scales used by military model makers:
  • 1:64
  • 1:72
  • 1:144
  • 1:250
  • 1:285
  • 1:300
  • 1:350
You should check out what is available in various scales before deciding. Have fun!
 
AndyA said:
As Mastersmate suggests, it makes things easier to use a common model railroading scale. There are a lot of items available. Common scales are:
  • O scale 1:48
  • HO scale 1:87
  • N scale: 1:160
  • Z scale: 1:220
Generally, fewer items are available for scales used by military model makers:
  • 1:64
  • 1:72
  • 1:144
  • 1:250
  • 1:285
  • 1:300
  • 1:350
You should check out what is available in various scales before deciding. Have fun!
Click to expand...
I'm definitely going to do research and shop around. Thanks, Andy.
 
Well I've just joined and know very little about ships, but lots about model soldiers and terrain, so I'm going to weigh in.

I had a look at the Wikipedia map of the battle area, which at full size is 15.6 by 19.3cm, at a stated scale of 2.5cm = 1,000 yards. That says the actual battle area was 6,240 by 8,000 yards. Call it 6,000 by 8,000, which keeps the 3:4 proportions of your intended display. I'm making a simplifying assumption here that you diorama will show much the same area as that map.

To get that area down to 3 feet by 4, which is 1 yard by 1.33 yards, you're looking at a scale of 1:6000.

As noted above, the smallest scale in common use by land-battle wargamers is 1:300, which is 20 times too large. There is also 1:600, made by a company called PicoArmor. This is still 10 times too large, so you may have to look at custom 3D prints or scratchbuilds.

A 500-man infantry battalion formed up in a three-deep line would have been 102 yards wide (22" per man) and 3 yards deep; in 1:6000 scale, this is 3/5ths of an inch wide, a fiftieth of an inch deep and a hundredth of an inch high. Objects that small are best painted onto your diorama - their height will be in scale. You'll need a very thin brush. Or, you could buy clear decal paper and print suitable unit shapes onto that.

A typical ship of the line of 1781 was about 170 feet long on the gundeck, which in 1:6000 scale is about 1/3rd of an inch long. These will be the largest objects in your diorama.

In a way, the fact that this scale is so small is liberating - accurate miniatures aren't really possible or necessary.
 
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Beaufighter said:
Well I've just joined and know very little about ships, but lots about model soldiers and terrain, so I'm going to weigh in.

I had a look at the Wikipedia map of the battle area, which at full size is 15.6 by 19.3cm, at a stated scale of 2.5cm = 1,000 yards. That says the actual battle area was 6,240 by 8,000 yards. Call it 6,000 by 8,000, which keeps the 3:4 proportions of your intended display. I'm making a simplifying assumption here that you diorama will show much the same area as that map.

To get that area down to 3 feet by 4, which is 1 yard by 1.33 yards, you're looking at a scale of 1:6000.

As noted above, the smallest scale in common use by land-battle wargamers is 1:300, which is 20 times too large. There is also 1:600, made by a company called PicoArmor. This is still 10 times too large, so you may have to look at custom 3D prints or scratchbuilds.

A 500-man infantry battalion formed up in a three-deep line would have been 102 yards wide (22" per man) and 3 yards deep; in 1:6000 scale, this is 3/5ths of an inch wide, a fiftieth of an inch deep and a hundredth of an inch high. Objects that small are best painted onto your diorama - their height will be in scale. You'll need a very thin brush. Or, you could buy clear decal paper and print suitable unit shapes onto that.

A typical ship of the line of 1781 was about 170 feet long on the gundeck, which in 1:6000 scale is about 1/3rd of an inch long. These will be the largest objects in your diorama.

In a way, the fact that this scale is so small is liberating - accurate miniatures aren't really possible or necessary.
Click to expand...
Thanks Beaufighter!
That's exactly the point I was trying to get across, but didn't put the research into it to find out how large the area to be covered is. :)
 
Beaufighter said:
Well I've just joined and know very little about ships, but lots about model soldiers and terrain, so I'm going to weigh in.

I had a look at the Wikipedia map of the battle area, which at full size is 15.6 by 19.3cm, at a stated scale of 2.5cm = 1,000 yards. That says the actual battle area was 6,240 by 8,000 yards. Call it 6,000 by 8,000, which keeps the 3:4 proportions of your intended display. I'm making a simplifying assumption here that you diorama will show much the same area as that map.

To get that area down to 3 feet by 4, which is 1 yard by 1.33 yards, you're looking at a scale of 1:6000.

As noted above, the smallest scale in common use by land-battle wargamers is 1:300, which is 20 times too large. There is also 1:600, made by a company called PicoArmor. This is still 10 times too large, so you may have to look at custom 3D prints or scratchbuilds.

A 500-man infantry battalion formed up in a three-deep line would have been 102 yards wide (22" per man) and 3 yards deep; in 1:6000 scale, this is 3/5ths of an inch wide, a fiftieth of an inch deep and a hundredth of an inch high. Objects that small are best painted onto your diorama - their height will be in scale. You'll need a very thin brush. Or, you could buy clear decal paper and print suitable unit shapes onto that.

A typical ship of the line of 1781 was about 170 feet long on the gundeck, which in 1:6000 scale is about 1/3rd of an inch long. These will be the largest objects in your diorama.

In a way, the fact that this scale is so small is liberating - accurate miniatures aren't really possible or necessary.
Click to expand...
Wow Beaufighter! Thanks. You did all the math I was scared of.

Great thing about this project is I can pretty much do it to the size I want. And if I need to fudge the dimensions a bit I can. I'll check out PicoArmor, but you're right, I'll probably have to scratch build a lot.

One thing about painting the pieces. My intent is to teach the students about the Yorktown battle first. Then, change the scenario so they can think through how different circumstances must be accounted for and react to them. So, I won't be able to paint the formations to the diorama. I'll just have to take the dimensions you provided and scratch build the formations so they can be moved around like game pieces.

Thanks again for all the thought you put into my dilemma. I really appreciate it.
Kramer
 
Beaufighter said:
Well I've just joined and know very little about ships, but lots about model soldiers and terrain, so I'm going to weigh in.
.....
A 500-man infantry battalion formed up in a three-deep line would have been 102 yards wide (22" per man) and 3 yards deep; in 1:6000 scale, this is 3/5ths of an inch wide, a fiftieth of an inch deep and a hundredth of an inch high. Objects that small are best painted onto your diorama - their height will be in scale. You'll need a very thin brush.
Click to expand...
I love the fact that the thickness of the paint would represent the height of the soldiers.
I struggle a bit with scale but my problems fade into insignificance compared to this dilemma! News
 
@ Kramer

You're welcome. I live and breathe this nonsense :)

Regarding units, the simplest thing might be to obtain the order of battle for each side and then print out markers for each on to card, or onto paper that you then glue to card. There are labelling conventions for this to denote unit type that you can borrow from military cartography. Infantry units are typically squares with a diagonal line, cavalry have two diagonal lines crossing, artillery have a dot in the middle, HQs are a circle, and so on. If you then make the French markers white like their coats, the British red like theirs, and the Continental army red-white-blue, you can see who's who. You can then just put a key or legend in a discreet corner so people know what they're seeing.

There are companies that make every shape and size of base for wargamers plus bespoke base shapes, for not a lot of money. In the USA I think laser-cut plywood is the usual material. Some people use metal because although it costs more it will never ever warp. If you Google something like "laser cut plywood bases" you will see what's out there and local to you.

PicoArmor does ridiculously cheap 1/600 ("3mm") and 1/900 ("2mm") buildings. They do a bag of 20 American Civil War buildings for less than $10. They do a bag of 100 (!) 1/600 hotels for the same money. If you exaggerate the vertical scale a bit, so that trees look like trees and built-up areas look like buildings, you could get away with those. Building versus figure scale is a common issue for wargamers by the way. If 30 figures take up 100 yards of real space, then a single church model plus graveyard placed next to them is the size of a whole village. In the smaller scales this matters less. Your group of overscale houses will still look like a town.

Good luck, it sounds fun.
 
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Beaufighter said:
@ Kramer

You're welcome. I live and breathe this nonsense :)

Regarding units, the simplest thing might be to obtain the order of battle for each side and then print out markers for each on to card, or onto paper that you then glue to card. There are labelling conventions for this to denote unit type that you can borrow from military cartography. Infantry units are typically squares with a diagonal line, cavalry have two diagonal lines crossing, artillery have a dot in the middle, HQs are a circle, and so on. If you then make the French markers white like their coats, the British red like theirs, and the Continental army red-white-blue, you can see who's who. You can then just put a key or legend in a discreet corner so people know what they're seeing.

There are companies that make every shape and size of base for wargamers plus bespoke base shapes, for not a lot of money. In the USA I think laser-cut plywood is the usual material. Some people use metal because although it costs more it will never ever warp. If you Google something like "laser cut plywood bases" you will see what's out there and local to you.

PicoArmor does ridiculously cheap 1/600 ("3mm") and 1/900 ("2mm") buildings. They do a bag of 20 American Civil War buildings for less than $10. They do a bag of 100 (!) 1/600 hotels for the same money. If you exaggerate the vertical scale a bit, so that trees look like trees and built-up areas look like buildings, you could get away with those. Building versus figure scale is a common issue for wargamers by the way. If 30 figures take up 100 yards of real space, then a single church model plus graveyard placed next to them is the size of a whole village. In the smaller scales this matters less. Your group of overscale houses will still look like a town.

Good luck, it sounds fun.
Click to expand...
I've got lots of luck on my side! First, all your math and scaling help. Second, I have a friend who is an historian who gives battlefield tours of Yorktown and he's a retired Army officer. He's going to help me with the tactics and formations. And here's a picture of a diorama at the Yorktown museum that he sent me. I haven't seen it in person yet but I'll be referencing it a lot when I start my project.
IMG_4997.jpeg
 
Simple to visualize using metric (i.e. base 10) units:

6000 x 8000 yards = 6000 x 8000 m (let's simplify). Using a 1:1000 scale, the footage required is 6 x 8 meters. That is 20 x 26 feet.

Based on multiple trips to October 19 Yorktown Day festivities, I seem to recall that the useful area of the battlefield proper (i.e. not counting lodging, hospitals, burial, eating, etc. facilities) is slightly less.

As mentioned in another post, 1:900 scale buildings would be 2 mm, i.e. less than 1/10th of an inch.

A trip to the Battlefield museum (I don't have photos of the diorama, most likely because it is too big to take a good photo) might prove worthwile.
 
Try a company called Baccus 6mm they are a UK based supplier of miniature models they have a good website of mostly cast figures and buildings they do full army sets for British and American colonial sets the army packs are supplied with cannon horse mounted troops foot soldiers and are designed to be painted with ease despite their small size (around z scale so 220 -240 I think) and they ship anywhere in the world
they supply most of what you need and can be contacted via email or phone for help and advice
 
Raz said:
As mentioned in another post, 1:900 scale buildings would be 2 mm, i.e. less than 1/10th of an inch.
Click to expand...
Military miniatures use scales that aren't scales at all, such as 54mm, 28mm, etc. What they purport to mean is that the number of millimetres equals the height of a man. Because people are different heights and you can't determine height when they're wearing a hat anyway, these "scales" all turn out slightly different to each other.

2mm scale means a man would be 2mm tall, which is approximately 1/900 scale. So if we figure a two storey building with a pitched roof would be about twenty-five feet high, and a four-storey about forty-five feet, they'd respectively be 8mm and 15mm high in 1/900 scale.

That would probably look pretty good on an otherwise 1/6000 terrain board. They're small enough that you can show the street plan, but big enough to be made out as buildings. Trees ditto. If you stuck strictly to 1/6000 scale vertically as well, then even trees would only be about 3mm to 4mm high, which is about like the nap on a twist pile carpet.
 
Raz said:
Simple to visualize using metric (i.e. base 10) units:

6000 x 8000 yards = 6000 x 8000 m (let's simplify). Using a 1:1000 scale, the footage required is 6 x 8 meters. That is 20 x 26 feet.

Based on multiple trips to October 19 Yorktown Day festivities, I seem to recall that the useful area of the battlefield proper (i.e. not counting lodging, hospitals, burial, eating, etc. facilities) is slightly less.

As mentioned in another post, 1:900 scale buildings would be 2 mm, i.e. less than 1/10th of an inch.

A trip to the Battlefield museum (I don't have photos of the diorama, most likely because it is too big to take a good photo) might prove worthwile.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Raz! The Museum of the American Revolution at Yorktown is definitely worth the trip, even if you're not building a diorama. And the battlefield is well-maintained by the US Park Service. I plan to make several trips to the museum and to the battlefield when I start to draw up the diorama. You're right about there being a 'useful area of the battlefield proper.' I have a couple of steps before I start putting pen to plywood. First, I'm having a friend plot a map I have showing the battlefield and the town and Gloucester as large as possible. Then I have to figure out exactly how much of the battlefield I want to show to give the wargame participants the experience I'm going for. I'll check with the SOS administrators to see if it's appropriate for this site, but if it is I will start a build log and show everyone step by step. If this (my first diorama) works out, I can see myself making one to accompany my Endurance.
 
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