Gun Barrels selection for the Montañés

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Hello ,
How much can i rely on the information in the site threedecks.org ?
I'm looking at the armament of the Montañés and for the battle of Trafalgar
is it possible really to put 30 pounder cannons on the Quarterdeck ?

IMG_20240502_072417.jpg

I tried to find information on the 30 pounder Obus cannons the only things i was able to find is about this 30 pound long gun.

IMG_20240502_081703.jpg


So, for the correct scale of 1/70
8 pounder will be about 28mm long
18 pounder will be about 36mm long
and the 30 pounder will be about 40 mm long

Now for the main issue ,
all the gun barrls i found was the smae generic gun barrel but in different scale

Any idea would be good , I would like to hear your insights.
@El Capi any good advice ?

Thank you
Guy
 
How much can i rely on the information in the site threedecks.org ?
The site thrredecks is collecting data from printed publications, so the quality and correctness of data is depending from the quality and correctness of the printed works


Related to the guns of the Le Montanes is shown

Screenshot 2024-05-02 101715.png

Reference is made to "ref:1885"

Screenshot 2024-05-02 101823.png

So the given data about the guns after in 1805 , means also during the battle of Trafalgar - I guess you want to show her armed like during Trafalgar? - is based on an unpublished paper by Rif Winfield which is called "The Spanish at Trafalgar"

Screenshot 2024-05-02 102607.png

And I guess Rif Winfield collected these information also from somewhere - Publiocation date is 2023 - so it seems, that he is working on a book
 
BTW: Rif Winfield knows a lot about spanish war ships

He published once

Spanish Warships in the Age of Sail, 1700–1860​

Design, Construction, Careers and Fates

This book is the latest contribution to a unique series in a common format documenting in great detail the warships of the major naval powers during the age of sail. To date, four volumes have covered the British Navy, two have been devoted to the French Navy and one each to the Dutch and Russian Navies. This volume on the Spanish Navy, for much of its history the third largest in the world, fills the final gap in the ranks of the major maritime powers.

This book is the first comprehensive listing of these ships in English and covers the development of all the naval vessels owned or deployed by Spain during the period of the Bourbon monarchy from 1700 to 1860 (including the period of French control during the Napoleonic Wars), but it also sets the scene for that period by summarising the origins of Spanish naval development under the preceding Habsburg regime.

As with previous volumes in the series, the main chapters list all the naval vessels from 1700 onwards (including those 16th century ships which survived into the new regime in 1700) by type, with the first chapters listing the ships of the line (navíos in Spanish terminology) and frigates in descending order of firepower, and subsequent chapters covering minor and ancillary vessels. Where available, a brief service history of each individual ship is given.

A comprehensive introductory section includes a group of background essays designed to provide the reader with a deep understanding of how Spanish naval forces operated, and the context within which they were organised.

Certain to become the standard English-language reference work, its publication is of the utmost importance to every naval historian and general reader interested in the navies of the sailing era.
 
Spanish Artillery (1745-1808)
Stephen Summerfield of Loughborough University


and an intzeresting posting

The naval howitzer or mortar was use to thrown “bombs” exploding shell in a high arc — usually from vessels into shore fortifications, but also from ship to ship, and from shore to ship. The word was rendered into German as aufeniz as early as 1440; later in Italian obice, Portuguese obus, French obusier, Spanish obús, and the Dutch word houwitser, which may have led led to the English word howitzer. In my opinion the obús was more of a mortar than a true howitzer, which was predominately a field artillery weapon.

main-qimg-1332bcbffd094e70b7068f341376f80e-lq

Well into the 16th century, mortar trajectory was reasoned to be most effective at an elevation of 45 degrees, and mortars were often cast as a single piece with an integrated bed fixed at that angle. This meant that mortars had to be moved or fitted with blocks and wedges to vary the trajectory when 45 degrees was found to be inadequate. A medium-sized mortar with a high angle of fire, filled with a burlap bag of small shot balls known as grapeshot, could be positioned close to the rail of the vessel and aimed at a near-vertical angle to rain down destruction on enemy skiffs or ships approaching close enough for boarding. Meet the Mortar: A Deadly 600-Year-Old Weapon

The key difference between a naval gun and a naval howitzer is the maximum elevation (depression for purists) angle for a Gun is 45 degrees, whereas for a Howitzer or mortar it is greater than that and enables the trajectory to go a lot higher. Physically, the howitzer resembled the mortar in length and general design, with the major difference being that the trunnions (the outcroppings on the barrel which fixed the weapon to its carriage) were located at the midpoint of the barrel, rather than at the rear like the mortar. In many ways, this weapon was something of a cross between a cannon and a mortar.

main-qimg-72ddb7cab034df684fc541419b25b961-lq

main-qimg-26f0983eaebfff5394f758bd96e9b2cb-lq

Naval mortar innovations continued to develop. In the late 17th century, small single-masted ships devoted to handling large mortars became highly effective in naval bombardments. Called simply mortar ships (or bomb vessels), these carried a combined gun and ship crew of eight and a complement of two huge mortars on massive turntable supports and embedded in a ball-and-socket base for aiming. Mortar ships were ideal for bombarding fortifications or strongpoints on high bluffs and cliffs, especially if they were able to maneuver close enough to shore to be protected from the forts’ guns, with their limited angles of fire.

main-qimg-967046a07299c4661d378971652007ff-lq

Artist’s concept of an early obús / howitzer used as a shore defense. The commissioner general of artillery, Francisco Javier Rovira, initially installed light obús pieces to launch grenades (bombs) with both direct fire and with high arcing fire (suggesting a howitzer-like weapon). The proof of the usefulness these weapons being established, in 1785 the naval board introduced modifications to them [the shells? the weapons?]. Historia del navío de línea Santa Ana (2) See below*

Base mortars were generally shorter-barrelled weapons, usually fixed in a wooden "bed" at a 45-degree angle. The inside of a mortar was double chambered. In other words, there was a large chamber for the projectile and a smaller one at the rear of the tube for the gunpowder charge. Rather than firing a solid ball like the cannon, mortars fired exploding projectiles called "bombs." A typical “bomb” resembled a solid cannonball, but was hollow and filled with gunpowder. Just prior to firing, a wooden fuse was placed in a hole in the bomb after being cut to the proper length by one of the gunners. The the gunner would light the bomb fuse, followed by the gun )hopefully), and when bomb fuse burnt into the bomb, the powder inside would explode, sending large fragments of the bomb out in various directions. Explosive shells could be lobbed into targets from 50 to 1,200 yards away.

On land, a portable mortar named the Coehorn after its inventor, Dutch military engineer Baron van Menno Coehoorn, appeared in 1673. In the mid-19th century, the small portable Coehorn found ready use along with larger mortars during the American Civil War. By the end of the century, however, concerted military opinion in European countries such as Great Britain held that mortars were obsolete alongside the great advances in cannon technology. However, after trench warfare became quite common, mortars were found again to be increasingly useful.

*En 1785 se adquirieron seis carronadas de gran calibre a la fábrica escocesa de Carron, 2 eran de calibre 96, 2 de 68 y dos más de calibre 42, con sus montajes, pertrechos y municiones al completo, que fueron probadas comparativamente con unos obuses marinos proyectados por el comisario General de Artillería Francisco Javier Rovira, piezas ligeras para lanzar granadas con tiro directo y aumentar los fuegos altos de los buques. Las pruebas fueron realizadas en 1785 a bordo del navío "Santa Ana" y sus resultados dieron lugar a que se introdujeran modificaciones en los obuses.


 
Hey Uwek,
Thank you very very much for all the info i'll read deeply your posts later on.
the given data about the guns after in 1805 , means also during the battle of Trafalgar - I guess you want to show her armed like during Trafalgar?
Indeed this is my intention . :D
 
Thank you @Uwek and @Waldemar
I now need to do some little homework about the guns.
I don't know yet if i'll go on the Trafalgar setup or the original setup
Anyway How correctly is this setup for the quarterdeck and forecastle ?alcazar-castillo-navio-74-1024x251.jpg

It seems that OcCre forgot few gun.
Sorry for the photo quality.

2024-05-02 (1).png
 
BTW: Rif Winfield knows a lot about spanish war ships

He published once

Spanish Warships in the Age of Sail, 1700–1860​

Design, Construction, Careers and Fates

This book is the latest contribution to a unique series in a common format documenting in great detail the warships of the major naval powers during the age of sail. To date, four volumes have covered the British Navy, two have been devoted to the French Navy and one each to the Dutch and Russian Navies. This volume on the Spanish Navy, for much of its history the third largest in the world, fills the final gap in the ranks of the major maritime powers.

This book is the first comprehensive listing of these ships in English and covers the development of all the naval vessels owned or deployed by Spain during the period of the Bourbon monarchy from 1700 to 1860 (including the period of French control during the Napoleonic Wars), but it also sets the scene for that period by summarising the origins of Spanish naval development under the preceding Habsburg regime.

As with previous volumes in the series, the main chapters list all the naval vessels from 1700 onwards (including those 16th century ships which survived into the new regime in 1700) by type, with the first chapters listing the ships of the line (navíos in Spanish terminology) and frigates in descending order of firepower, and subsequent chapters covering minor and ancillary vessels. Where available, a brief service history of each individual ship is given.

A comprehensive introductory section includes a group of background essays designed to provide the reader with a deep understanding of how Spanish naval forces operated, and the context within which they were organised.

Certain to become the standard English-language reference work, its publication is of the utmost importance to every naval historian and general reader interested in the navies of the sailing era.
Moin, Uwek, I can only confirm that. A very worthwhile investment, especially for the many model builders of the Chebec Cazador, or rather the ships based on the Cazador. It was and is a warship and not what is usually made of it. ;)
 
Thank you ,but This is the long gun
I need the Caliber of the howitzer 30 pdr,
i don't know if they are the same Caliber.
what year is Howitzer? Below is an excellent article, you may find the answer there

 
what year is Howitzer? Below is an excellent article, you may find the answer there

I will read this .
I think that Rovira design from 1798 will the best match.
 
.​
Do you know to tell what was the 30-pdr caliber ?

Hi,
I'm away from home for a few more days and don't have access to my home library, so out of necessity I'm providing a table of barrel lengths for each calibre taken from some online publication, sorry. You can scale everything else proportionally, so basically you don't need any other dimensions. The barrel length should be given here without the cascabel, i.e. only between the base ring and the barrel mouth.


main-qimg-bb97936c3835e08443fa320b21481679.jpg

.​
 
.​


Hi,
I'm away from home for a few more days and don't have access to my home library, so out of necessity I'm providing a table of barrel lengths for each calibre taken from some online publication, sorry. You can scale everything else proportionally, so basically you don't need any other dimensions. The barrel length should be given here without the cascabel, i.e. only between the base ring and the barrel mouth.


View attachment 446136

.​
Hi Waldemar
Thank you ,

No worries ,
I saw this table.
I've sent all the info I gathered to the manufacturer.
now i'm waiting to see the costs.
Cheers
 
.​


Hi,
I'm away from home for a few more days and don't have access to my home library, so out of necessity I'm providing a table of barrel lengths for each calibre taken from some online publication, sorry. You can scale everything else proportionally, so basically you don't need any other dimensions. The barrel length should be given here without the cascabel, i.e. only between the base ring and the barrel mouth.


View attachment 446136

.​
They were really short and heavy , the 30pdr only 1,51 meter long but close to one ton of weight
 
They were really short and heavy, the 30pdr only 1.51 meter long but close to one ton of weight
They probably needed very thick Wall, so the gun won't explode while firing it,
surely they needed lots of gunpowder to propel the balls in such short chamber.
 
The armament of the Montanes will be for Trafalgar as follow:

10pc' 30 pounder howitzer
8pc' 18 pounder
8pc' 8 pounder
30pc' of 36 pounder dummy gun barrels (2 will go to the stern gunports )
22pc' 18 pounder dummy gun barrels

I also offered my client to add 4 24pdr howitzer on the poop deck but he declined the offer.

now I'm waiting for the production cost proposal .
 
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