• SUBSCRIBE TO SHIPS IN SCALE TODAY!

    The beloved Ships in Scale Magazine is back and charting a new course for 2026!
    Discover new skills, new techniques, and new inspirations in every issue.

    NOTE THAT OUR NEXT ISSUE WILL BE July/August 2026
  • Win a Free Custom Engraved Brass Coin!!!
    As a way to introduce our brass coins to the community, we will raffle off a free coin during the month of August. Follow link ABOVE for instructions for entering.

Gunports on Brig Niagara kit from MS

glennb17

glennb17

Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Messages
473
Points
278

Location
San Diego, CA
Hi Guys,

I started building Model Shipways' kit for the Brig Niagara. After a few POF kits and some scratch builds of small ships, I'd like to build something fully rigged. I've been having some difficulties with the hand drafted plans. My question is about the gunports. The plans call for one side of all the ports to be a bulkhead and the other part of the framing. The problem is that when the line perpendicular to a tangent to the outboard side of the port begins to differ from the line perpendicular to the centerline, it's not clear what to do. Here's an example from the drawings.
1783692902592.png
The side of the port against the D bulkhead is perpendicular to the centerline while the other side made from the framing is perpendicular to the tangent on the outboard side of the port.

There isn't a deck layout with the carronades and guns in the plans. Do the carronades go out perpendicular to the centerline or perpendicular to the tangent to the outboard side? Also, anyone have a guess on the width and height of such a port or if it was square? Every port drawn on the plans has a non-systematic difference in width and some confusion with the 1/64" strips called for to cover the outboard planking grain.

Am I being to picky?

Thanks for reading this and any insight you might have.
 
glennb17 said:
Am I being to picky?
Click to expand...
Heck no Glenn!!!! This is a great question. Both sides should be parallel to the frames as they make up the sides of the port and which are ninety degrees to the keel (except for cant frames) For the sizes, why not use the dimensions on the contemporary as-built drawing from 1814 (assuming it is the Niagara)?
Allan
 
Unless someone has found something recently there are no drawings of the original Niagara. There are photos of the wreckage that was raised from Lake Erie in 1912 that show gunports.

There were also American 1812 brigs on lakes Ontario and Champlain for which wreckage has more recently been studied by archaeologists. Results with detailed drawings have been published. The best book detailing all war of 1812 Great Lakes vessels that have been studied is Coffins of the Brave, published by Texas A&M Press.

The Model Shipways Kit builds the Niagara Replica which may be similar but is not the same as the War of 1812 brig. So, if you want to really build an accurate model look for information on the replica.

Roger
 
Roger Pellett said:
Unless someone has found something recently there are no drawings of the original Niagara.
Click to expand...
This is really interesting. While it is not recent, the as-built drawing I mentioned above at RMG is described as Niagara built at the Kingston yard in Ontario. The legend on the drawing also describes it as Niagara. https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-83604 I assume this is a different ship than the one built at Presque Isle. Which one is the kit supposed to be? They call it the US brig, but if there are no drawings where did they come up with the design? Same for the replica, did they use the wreckage as a guide?
Allan
 
Last edited:
the Model Expo kit i believe is based on Chapelle's drawings many years ago while working as a volunteer in the museum in Vermillion i found a set of drawings of the Niagara

niagara plan.jpg


niagara plan1.jpg
 
Last edited:
This is really interesting. While it is not recent, the as-built drawing I mentioned above at RMG is described as Niagara built at the Kingston yard in Ontario. The legend on the drawing also describes it as Niagara. https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-83604 I assume this is a different ship than the one built at Presque Isle.

these are different ship the hulls are not even close to one another

Which one is the kit supposed to be?

the kit is the US brig Niagara built on Lake Erie at Presque Isle.

They call it the US brig, but if there are no drawings where did they come up with the design?

the design was based on the wreckage and best guess

Same for the replica, did they use the wreckage as a guide?

the first replica was based on the wreck the second replica was based on the first replica.
 
somewhere i have the framing plan of the first replica the gun port sides were made up from the top timbers of the framing and the frames were set 90 degrees to the keel. That makes each gunport square

niagara.jpg
 
Since the War of 1812 there have three replicas of the brigs that were built at Erie PA to defend Lake Erie. Niagara and sister Lawrence were supposedly identical.

The first was built for the 1913 Centennial from sunken remains. After the War, the Ross Bagot treaty with Canada prohibited armed vessels on the Lakes so the Lake Erie fleet was sunk. The drawings that Dave found at the Vermilion, Ohio museum are for this vessel. The wreckage that Dave showed in his second post shows what was available for the design of this first replica.

The second was built in the 1930’s. Howard Chappell was commissioned to design her. Construction was delayed by the onset of the War. I don’t believe that this replica was ever put in the water. I remember seeing it in a land berth in an Erie, PA park in the early 1950’s while waiting out a storm during a sailing trip on my parents’ boat. Plans for this replica have been published in Chapelle’s books. Chapelle unfortunately does not explain the basis for his design other than to say that he always felt that the fore body lines were too fine. He uses this as an example of why not to design a replica of a named vessel.

The third is the present vessel that shows up at Great Lakes Tall Ship festivals. She is a handsome vessel, especially when under sail and away from the shore side honky tonk. She was designed in the 1980’s. She is best described as a Niagara Type Brig. Her designer started with a blank sheet of paper and of course incorporated USCG regulations for passenger carrying vessels.

I have never been interested in building a model of Niagara from scratch or a kit. I find the Brig Eagle built on Lake Champlain to be a better candidate as her remains have been studied by archaeologists with modern day techniques and technology. Drawings available for her are more likely to result in an accurate model.

Hopefully someone from Model Expo will respond but I believe that their kit builds a model of the third (present day) replica.

Roger
 
Roger Pellett said:
Since the War of 1812 there have three replicas of the brigs that were built at Erie PA to defend Lake Erie. Niagara and sister Lawrence were supposedly identical.

The first was built for the 1913 Centennial from sunken remains. After the War, the Ross Bagot treaty with Canada prohibited armed vessels on the Lakes so the Lake Erie fleet was sunk. The drawings that Dave found at the Vermilion, Ohio museum are for this vessel. The wreckage that Dave showed in his second post shows what was available for the design of this first replica.

The second was built in the 1930’s. Howard Chappell was commissioned to design her. Construction was delayed by the onset of the War. I don’t believe that this replica was ever put in the water. I remember seeing it in a land berth in an Erie, PA park in the early 1950’s while waiting out a storm during a sailing trip on my parents’ boat. Plans for this replica have been published in Chapelle’s books. Chapelle unfortunately does not explain the basis for his design other than to say that he always felt that the fore body lines were too fine. He uses this as an example of why not to design a replica of a named vessel.

The third is the present vessel that shows up at Great Lakes Tall Ship festivals. She is a handsome vessel, especially when under sail and away from the shore side honky tonk. She was designed in the 1980’s. She is best described as a Niagara Type Brig. Her designer started with a blank sheet of paper and of course incorporated USCG regulations for passenger carrying vessels.

I have never been interested in building a model of Niagara from scratch or a kit. I find the Brig Eagle built on Lake Champlain to be a better candidate as her remains have been studied by archaeologists with modern day techniques and technology. Drawings available for her are more likely to result in an accurate model.

Hopefully someone from Model Expo will respond but I believe that their kit builds a model of the third (present day) replica.

Roger
Click to expand...
Thanks Roger for the insight and the aside about actually seeing the 2nd version. I reallze my model won't be a museum-quality reference. I just grew up on Lake Ontario and feel a connection to the area and its history. I'm also trying to get some experience rigging without going nuts as well and I think a brig might be a good place to start, but want to stay close to the original where I can.

Thanks again!
 
the state of New York did an archaeological study of the Jefferson built on lake Onterio 1812 the study was done by Texas A&M
i have the full report and site drawings.
I have never seen a model of the Jefferson the Niagara took the spot light the Eagle, Oneida and Jefferson kind of fell into the shadows
 
Last edited:
the first set of drawings had outside inside profile and lines, framing plan, deck plan and rigging plan and a mid section plan. i still might have the full set but that was a long, long time ago.
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
the state of New York did an archaeological study of the Jefferson built on lake Onterio 1812 the study was done by Texas A&M
i have the full report and site drawings.
I have never seen a model of the Jefferson the Niagara took the spot light the Eagle, Oneida and Jefferson kind of fell into the shadows
Click to expand...
I've been in contact with Prof. Crisman at Texas A&M in the past, the editor and contributor to Coffins of the Brave. He actually provided a pdf of this awesome cross section illustration of Jefferson. Not the same ship, but probably many of the same features and design sensibilities. I also connected with Glenn Grieco at their Ship Model Lab to support the marine archeology department. He was insightful as well. Boy, some people have all the fun.
 
your right Glenn Grieco at Texas A&M Ship Model Lab built the Jefferson. it might make a good historic subject for a school project. the ship is well documented and there is no commercial kit of it that i know of.
 
Unfortunately, Jefferson seems to have provided the most information, enough to build a model, but she is the least typical of the brigs that fought on the lakes during the warm of 1812. She is a relatively deep draft vessel. The Lake Erie and Lake Champlain vessels were shallow draft; different hull lines.

Roger
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top