Halcon

[Furry]

Thank you Alan. I am not aware of the types of flags or ensigns that should be flown. I appreciate your information.

 

[AllanKP69]

This was only meant for you or others that are concerned with accuracy. I know many do not care about the details as this is a hobby and a hobby is for whatever helps an individual have fun. One person's needs are different than other persons' needs and there is no wrong or right, just a different mind set.
Allan

 

[AllanKP69]

Thank you Alan. I am not aware of the types of flags or ensigns that should be flown

We are all in a learning mode, no matter how long we have been at it. This kind of mistake by AL seems to be due to lack of research which is common on AL kits. But, a little research is not so hard to do with the internet that we have today, for anyone that enjoys doing it. A hobby is to be fun, and research can be part of the fun and satisfaction for some folks but it can be a chore for others. With your family story I suspect you have already had some fun with the research. The link above is quite detailed for British vessels' flags and pennants as well.
Allan

 

[Furry]

We are all in a learning mode, no matter how long we have been at it. This kind of mistake by AL seems to be due to lack of research which is common on AL kits. But, a little research is not so hard to do with the internet that we have today, for anyone that enjoys doing it. A hobby is to be fun, and research can be part of the fun and satisfaction for some folks but it can be a chore for others. With your family story I suspect you have already had some fun with the research. The link above is quite detailed for British vessels' flags and pennants as well.
Allan

Hello Alan,
You obviously have a good knowledge of sailing ships and I was wondering if you could help me. My late father-in-law did this ship in a bottle many years ago. Unfortunately it is difficult to photograph as the interior is not perfectly clear. I would like to know what ship this is. My father-in-law was Norwegian and this ship has a Norwegian flag (which I know is the wrong way around). The bottle itself has a history as it was found with a message in it from a wrecked ship. This may be that wrecked ship. Any light you could throw on this would be most appreciated.
Cheers,
Geoff

 

[AllanKP69]

Geoff. Sorry to say I have zero knowledge of 19th century commercial ships which this appears to be. I wish I could help you but I have no information. If you had the name of the wreck that would really narrow it down. Even the the date it wrecked would help knowing it is Norwegian.
Allan

 

[AllanKP69]

I did a quick search three masted Norwegian commercial vessels that sank in the 19th or early 20th centuries and found two.

• Pronto (1895): A wooden barque built in 1892 in Norway. It ran ashore and wrecked at Porth-Post (Cornwall) on April 21, 1895, while on passage from Mauritius to Garston, England, with a cargo of sugar. [1]
• Margit (1911): A three-masted steel barque built in 1891. After departing Victor Harbor, Australia, the vessel ran aground on the shores of the Coorong on November 10, 1911, and eventually succumbed to the seas due to what an inquiry deemed careless navigation. [1]

 

[Furry]

I did a quick search three masted Norwegian commercial vessels that sank in the 19th or early 20th centuries and found two.

• Pronto (1895): A wooden barque built in 1892 in Norway. It ran ashore and wrecked at Porth-Post (Cornwall) on April 21, 1895, while on passage from Mauritius to Garston, England, with a cargo of sugar. [1]
• Margit (1911): A three-masted steel barque built in 1891. After departing Victor Harbor, Australia, the vessel ran aground on the shores of the Coorong on November 10, 1911, and eventually succumbed to the seas due to what an inquiry deemed careless navigation. [1]

Thank you Allan, It may be the Margit as the bottle was found in Australia.

 

[Furry]

I did a quick search three masted Norwegian commercial vessels that sank in the 19th or early 20th centuries and found two.

• Pronto (1895): A wooden barque built in 1892 in Norway. It ran ashore and wrecked at Porth-Post (Cornwall) on April 21, 1895, while on passage from Mauritius to Garston, England, with a cargo of sugar. [1]
• Margit (1911): A three-masted steel barque built in 1891. After departing Victor Harbor, Australia, the vessel ran aground on the shores of the Coorong on November 10, 1911, and eventually succumbed to the seas due to what an inquiry deemed careless navigation. [1]

Barque "Margit" on the Coorong beach, 34 miles north of Kingston. The wrecked vessel was from Norway with a cargo of wheat bound for England. She ran aground on sand on November 10, 1911. All hands were saved
View attachment 612383

 

[Furry]

Thank you Allan, It may be the Margit as the bottle was found in Australia.

The Margit on the sands of Coorong beach.

 

[Signet]

Like most vessels of the Royal Navy in the 18th century, Supply would have flown the red ensign ( "Red Duster"). While the Royal Navy used the squadron color system (red, white, and blue), the red ensign was to be used for all naval squadrons that were not operating as part of the White or Blue divisions

I've read that too, but also read that during certain periods all non-naval ships used the red ensign. And I'm confused as to how ships knew if the flagged ship was part of the Red Ensign (along with White and Blue), or a ship without a squadron, or if I'm correct, a non-naval vessel. I found this very confusing.

 

[AllanKP69]

I found this very confusing.

Me too. And if a ship changed squadrons, so did the flag.

 

[Signet]

Me too. And if a ship changed squadrons, so did the flag.

That part, I understand. If a ship flew the blue ensign, you knew what it was. And if it flew the white ensign, you knew as well. But if it was the red, it could be the Admiral of the fleet, or a ship in that group, or a ship from a different group, or any old cargo ship at all???

 

[AllanKP69]

The more I research this the more questions that are raised. The ensigns were the large flags flown aft. Flags were smaller and flown from the mizen, main, and fore mastheads. Before 1864 from what I could find your comment is correct, except that the head of a squadron flew an additional flag. The ship carrying a fleet commander (like an Admiral, Vice-Admiral, or Rear-Admiral) flew an additional personal command flag on a specific masthead to distinguish her from the rest of the fleet. The article goes into detail including the following comment:

Originally there were three naval squadrons - the Red, White and Blue - they took these colours from those of the Union Jack. Because the Red Ensigns of England and Scotland had already been established as merchant flags, a Red Ensign with the Union in the canton became the merchant flag of Great Britain upon Union in 1707. This led to potential confusion - was that ship a merchantman or a naval ship?
Also found the following: From AI so beware.

Admirals flew their flags from the mainmast, Vice-Admirals from the foremast, and Rear-Admirals from the mizzenmast.

• Red Squadron: Admirals flew a plain red flag, with Vice- and Rear-Admirals adding one or two white balls to the upper-left canton, respectively.
• White Squadron: Admirals used a St. George's Cross on a white field, with Vice- and Rear-Admirals adding one or two blue balls.
• Blue Squadron: Admirals flew a plain blue flag, with Vice- and Rear-Admirals adding one or two white balls.
• Commodores: Used colored broad pennants based on their squadron.

And to add to the confusion looking at the flags and ensigns flown on Victory at Trafalgar she flew the ensign, two St. Georges flags and two Union Jacks as well as Nelson's flag. I am sure some member here can explain this more simply and accurately. I never realized what a complex thing this could be, and we have not even thrown in pennants!
Allan

 

[Signet]

The more I research this the more questions that are raised. The ensigns were the large flags flown aft. Flags were smaller and flown from the mizen, main, and fore mastheads. Before 1864 from what I could find your comment is correct, except that the head of a squadron flew an additional flag. The ship carrying a fleet commander (like an Admiral, Vice-Admiral, or Rear-Admiral) flew an additional personal command flag on a specific masthead to distinguish her from the rest of the fleet. The article goes into detail including the following comment:

Originally there were three naval squadrons - the Red, White and Blue - they took these colours from those of the Union Jack. Because the Red Ensigns of England and Scotland had already been established as merchant flags, a Red Ensign with the Union in the canton became the merchant flag of Great Britain upon Union in 1707. This led to potential confusion - was that ship a merchantman or a naval ship?
Also found the following: From AI so beware.

Admirals flew their flags from the mainmast, Vice-Admirals from the foremast, and Rear-Admirals from the mizzenmast.

• Red Squadron: Admirals flew a plain red flag, with Vice- and Rear-Admirals adding one or two white balls to the upper-left canton, respectively.
• White Squadron: Admirals used a St. George's Cross on a white field, with Vice- and Rear-Admirals adding one or two blue balls.
• Blue Squadron: Admirals flew a plain blue flag, with Vice- and Rear-Admirals adding one or two white balls.
• Commodores: Used colored broad pennants based on their squadron.

And to add to the confusion looking at the flags and ensigns flown on Victory at Trafalgar she flew the ensign, two St. Georges flags and two Union Jacks as well as Nelson's flag. I am sure some member here can explain this more simply and accurately. I never realized what a complex thing this could be, and we have not even thrown in pennants!
Allan

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why my Granado remains flag-less.