I think, for me at least, the step up from balsa is basswood. Much much firmer and yet easy to work and carve.
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LUCZORAMA SHIPWRECK SCAVENGER HUNT GIVEAWAY. 4 Weeks of Fun • 1 Legendary Prize ((OcCre’s Fram Ship)) • Global Crew Welcome!
**VIEW THREAD HERE**
I have no idea what I am up to :)
- Thread starter jepoysaipan
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Hi Bob,
Very well said!, I ended up scouring all the information I can gather over this forum and the net during the weekends, I mostly found ship plans but not detailed enough to show the proper scale and measurement of the top part and the details particularly the sail size, mast, cannons etc. I am eyeing the "FrigateChapman 40" or the "Priediestinacja" since those are the plans I was able to get so far.
I think I can finish the hull but little bit worried about the remaining details, I wanted to scratch built from scratch and learn as I go, since I had a lot of "plastic model kit building" during my younger years, so I guess I have to leap into "scratch built" since I have all the time in the world right now, so I wanted to make the most of it.
Any thoughts on those mentioned above? if not any suggestions is highly appreciated.
Cheers!
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Hi Philski,
I already ordered those as well as veneers for the 2nd planking, just trying to get my head into what I had chosen to do in my spare time for now
Jeff
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This is very nice, I don't know about the proportions/scaling but it is visually appealing at least for me
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Hi Donnie,
Yes I am a Filipino, been relocated in different countries due to work and settled in Saipan of the Northern Mariana Islands with my family, right now I will be stuck here in the Philippines for my medication et al.
btw, I am located at SJDM Bulacan!While not wishing to sound harsh, I must say that the two models you mention, as well as any similar models, are not remotely advisable as a first ship modeling project. "The plans I was able to get so far" barely scratch the surface of those readily available and any model of a three-masted square-rigged Eighteenth-Century ship of the line requires not only plans, but a considerable knowledge and understanding of ships of this type and period well beyond what is generally available in just about any plans one might acquire. (Not to mention a great deal of ship modeling technical experience.) For one thing, as you've noticed, the details of masting and rigging and ordinance are often lacking. These details were somewhat standardized in British naval practice and vary by period, often with surprising exactitude. A difference of but a few years can often reflect a significant difference in detail. Depicting details of rigging or ordinance that were obsolete or not even invented at the time the model depicts just won't do! (At least not to anyone who knows the difference, that is!) In real life, these details were very rarely, if ever, depicted in plans, such details being often left for the ship's masters to determine pursuant to their personal requirements. In that period, naval architectural drawing was in its relative infancy and what we often have is only the lines (hull shape) and perhaps a hull elevation drawing, with masting and rigging, ordinance, and decoration (figureheads, etc.) unrecorded. It is thus left to the modeler to consult the historical record to ascertain these details. Most any modeler who would undertake to model such vessels would research not only which cannon were used on such vessels, but even the details of which royal crest might be cast into the cannon if the scale (e.g. 1/4" to the foot - 1:48 scale) is large enough to portray that detail. As I mentioned before, this is why reference books are an essential ship modeling tool.
In selecting a model to build as an initial effort, a much smaller unarmed vessel which can be modeled at a larger scale (thereby permitting more detail to be portrayed) with a fore and aft rig (no square sails, so less complex rigging) is a far more prudent first challenge to undertake. There are many, many ships' plans available and it's important to note that there are different types of plans. The more readily available plans are original drawings available from the major maritime museums. These plans were drawn for the purpose of recording the details of a vessel as built or to be built by the shipyard, not by a modeler. If one is to use these original plans to build a model, they will have to be scaled to the model's smaller scale and in many instances, or at least with respect to many details, will have to be redrawn. The modeler will have to engineer the actual construction details for building the model rather than as the actual ship was constructed. In fact, relatively few contemporary plans provide the actual construction details of the ship depicted at all, but rather only the hull shape, the construction details being left to the shipbuilders to determine.
On the other hand, there are plans commercially available which have been drawn for modeling purposes, which is to say they are plans for a model, not plans for building the real ship. These, if done well, can save the modeler a lot of work in engineering the construction of his model and sometimes, in the case of the quality modeling plans, will provide all the details as well, saving a tremendous amount of research work. Some of these plans are produced in sets of plans sheets. Harold Underhill, a prolific British modeling author, produced many excellent modeling plans and these remain available today, although some, if not most by this time may not be as accurate as they can be today, owing to the greater availability of historical resources not available to Underhill when he drew them a half century or more ago. Harold Hahn, a master American ship modeler, also produced many sets of modeling plans. Copies of several of Underhill's plans can be purchased from Modeler's Central: https://www.modelerscentral.com/model-ship-plans/underhill-model-ship-plans/ and of Hahn's at https://modelshipbuilder.com/hahnplans.html
There are also quite a number of books by noted modelers that provide plans and highly detailed instructions for scratch building various ships. These are sometimes called "practicums" and are available from the various publishers of ship modeling books. Some are out of print and would have to be sourced from second-hand booksellers. Perhaps the largest selection of such books are available from Seawatch Books which publishes perhaps the best contemporary example of these books yet written. This is David Anscherl's The Fully Framed Model, a four-volume set, plus a supplement on sail making, describing the construction of an as built detailed model of a British Swan class sloop. Full-size modeling plans sheets are also available from this publisher. See: https://seawatchbooks.com/collections/david-antscherl While you would certainly learn a tremendous amount about ship modeling from reading Anscherl's books, I expect the most valuable information they can provide a beginner is exactly how complex building a model like most beginners want to build as a first effort and shouldn't actually is. Not to worry, though. There are many ship modeling books that provide plans and instructions for modeling much less complex subjects. Just google "books about building ship models from scratch" and you'll see what's available. Just remember, everything you need to know to build a ship model from scratch is in a book somewhere.
With few exceptions, free ship model plans online aren't the best. The good ship modeling plans are sold by their authors, often for many decades after their first publication, or published in books. You get what you pay for.
One outstanding general treatise on ship modeling that I have found far better than many of the others is The Art of Shipmodeling by Bernard Frolich. It's a bit pricey, but it's a large, beautifully illustrated "coffee table book" that's definitely worth the price of admission. Of course, you may find it on the used book market, too. See: https://ancre.fr/en/basic-books/16-l-art-du-modelisme-bernard-frolich.html
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Hi Bob,While not wishing to sound harsh, I must say that the two models you mention, as well as any similar models, are not remotely advisable as a first ship modeling project. "The plans I was able to get so far" barely scratch the surface of those readily available and any model of a three-masted square-rigged Eighteenth-Century ship of the line requires not only plans, but a considerable knowledge and understanding of ships of this type and period well beyond what is generally available in just about any plans one might acquire. (Not to mention a great deal of ship modeling technical experience.) For one thing, as you've noticed, the details of masting and rigging and ordinance are often lacking. These details were somewhat standardized in British naval practice and vary by period, often with surprising exactitude. A difference of but a few years can often reflect a significant difference in detail. Depicting details of rigging or ordinance that were obsolete or not even invented at the time the model depicts just won't do! (At least not to anyone who knows the difference, that is!) In real life, these details were very rarely, if ever, depicted in plans, such details being often left for the ship's masters to determine pursuant to their personal requirements. In that period, naval architectural drawing was in its relative infancy and what we often have is only the lines (hull shape) and perhaps a hull elevation drawing, with masting and rigging, ordinance, and decoration (figureheads, etc.) unrecorded. It is thus left to the modeler to consult the historical record to ascertain these details. Most any modeler who would undertake to model such vessels would research not only which cannon were used on such vessels, but even the details of which royal crest might be cast into the cannon if the scale (e.g. 1/4" to the foot - 1:48 scale) is large enough to portray that detail. As I mentioned before, this is why reference books are an essential ship modeling tool.
In selecting a model to build as an initial effort, a much smaller unarmed vessel which can be modeled at a larger scale (thereby permitting more detail to be portrayed) with a fore and aft rig (no square sails, so less complex rigging) is a far more prudent first challenge to undertake. There are many, many ships' plans available and it's important to note that there are different types of plans. The more readily available plans are original drawings available from the major maritime museums. These plans were drawn for the purpose of recording the details of a vessel as built or to be built by the shipyard, not by a modeler. If one is to use these original plans to build a model, they will have to be scaled to the model's smaller scale and in many instances, or at least with respect to many details, will have to be redrawn. The modeler will have to engineer the actual construction details for building the model rather than as the actual ship was constructed. In fact, relatively few contemporary plans provide the actual construction details of the ship depicted at all, but rather only the hull shape, the construction details being left to the shipbuilders to determine.
On the other hand, there are plans commercially available which have been drawn for modeling purposes, which is to say they are plans for a model, not plans for building the real ship. These, if done well, can save the modeler a lot of work in engineering the construction of his model and sometimes, in the case of the quality modeling plans, will provide all the details as well, saving a tremendous amount of research work. Some of these plans are produced in sets of plans sheets. Harold Underhill, a prolific British modeling author, produced many excellent modeling plans and these remain available today, although some, if not most by this time may not be as accurate as they can be today, owing to the greater availability of historical resources not available to Underhill when he drew them a half century or more ago. Harold Hahn, a master American ship modeler, also produced many sets of modeling plans. Copies of several of Underhill's plans can be purchased from Modeler's Central: https://www.modelerscentral.com/model-ship-plans/underhill-model-ship-plans/ and of Hahn's at https://modelshipbuilder.com/hahnplans.html
There are also quite a number of books by noted modelers that provide plans and highly detailed instructions for scratch building various ships. These are sometimes called "practicums" and are available from the various publishers of ship modeling books. Some are out of print and would have to be sourced from second-hand booksellers. Perhaps the largest selection of such books are available from Seawatch Books which publishes perhaps the best contemporary example of these books yet written. This is David Anscherl's The Fully Framed Model, a four-volume set, plus a supplement on sail making, describing the construction of an as built detailed model of a British Swan class sloop. Full-size modeling plans sheets are also available from this publisher. See: https://seawatchbooks.com/collections/david-antscherl While you would certainly learn a tremendous amount about ship modeling from reading Anscherl's books, I expect the most valuable information they can provide a beginner is exactly how complex building a model like most beginners want to build as a first effort and shouldn't actually is. Not to worry, though. There are many ship modeling books that provide plans and instructions for modeling much less complex subjects. Just google "books about building ship models from scratch" and you'll see what's available. Just remember, everything you need to know to build a ship model from scratch is in a book somewhere.
With few exceptions, free ship model plans online aren't the best. The good ship modeling plans are sold by their authors, often for many decades after their first publication, or published in books. You get what you pay for.
One outstanding general treatise on ship modeling that I have found far better than many of the others is The Art of Shipmodeling by Bernard Frolich. It's a bit pricey, but it's a large, beautifully illustrated "coffee table book" that's definitely worth the price of admission. Of course, you may find it on the used book market, too. See: https://ancre.fr/en/basic-books/16-l-art-du-modelisme-bernard-frolich.html
Reading your thoughts on this are mind blowing, I surely titled my first post as it is. Anyways I have all the time and would consider every bit of what you said and probably find a better first build from scratch, since I won't have an access to online purchases due to my current location I will try first all the digital content over the internet and would probably put my due diligence "on" before hitting the road.
Thank you for this much needed information, I appreciate your time and valuable insights to newbie on this field.
Cheers!
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This is going to sound”snarky” to some readers but it’s just intended to offer advice and to supplement Bob’s excellent posts.
When you begin this long journey, spend time thinking about your destination. What is your objective? Do you want to build an historically accurate model, or something that looks impressive to the uninformed observer. The two are not the same.
Many kits, especially the European Plank on Bulkhead ones depicting Seventeenth and Early Eighteenth Century vessels, will produce impressive models that do not necessarily match their actual counterparts. Some are fictional vessels. For many (the majority?) of modelers, building one of these models offers a satisfying experience and a display of their craftsmanship. For these builders, ship modeling is a hobby. If the cannons are the wrong pattern they don’t care. If that’s your objective, pick out a kit that appeals to you and build it.
A minority of modelers, seek to accurately record maritime history. This can involve a wide range of models from simple row boats to massive sailing
Warships, plus a host of powered vessels. If carefully researched and well built even the simplest will have lasting (but not nessarily financial) value.
There are also huge numbers of watercraft that have never been researched. There’s a guy on another forum modeling Mexican and South American watercraft. For example the painting below bought by my father in the 1950’s depicts Philippine fishing boats. One of these could be a worthwhile first project.
Roger
When you begin this long journey, spend time thinking about your destination. What is your objective? Do you want to build an historically accurate model, or something that looks impressive to the uninformed observer. The two are not the same.
Many kits, especially the European Plank on Bulkhead ones depicting Seventeenth and Early Eighteenth Century vessels, will produce impressive models that do not necessarily match their actual counterparts. Some are fictional vessels. For many (the majority?) of modelers, building one of these models offers a satisfying experience and a display of their craftsmanship. For these builders, ship modeling is a hobby. If the cannons are the wrong pattern they don’t care. If that’s your objective, pick out a kit that appeals to you and build it.
A minority of modelers, seek to accurately record maritime history. This can involve a wide range of models from simple row boats to massive sailing
Warships, plus a host of powered vessels. If carefully researched and well built even the simplest will have lasting (but not nessarily financial) value.
There are also huge numbers of watercraft that have never been researched. There’s a guy on another forum modeling Mexican and South American watercraft. For example the painting below bought by my father in the 1950’s depicts Philippine fishing boats. One of these could be a worthwhile first project.
Roger
Welcome Jepoy to the forums and greetings from Texas! Magic Mike
I'm thinking many of us buy kits and from such, build models that depict a ship we'd like to do as a hobby. And along the way, may decide to more accurately apply to the ship/model. Bashing is often thought of as adding detail and features beyond what the original kit provides. And then there are those that want historic accuracy and therefore build scratch built models from historic drawings. I build because I like the hobby and at this point in my life, find it fits well with my retirement. To each his own and best regards in your endeavors. Either way, its fun and so very interesting....
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If you want to build 1700 Goto Predestinacia I have a set of plans with cannons, masts, rigging, body plan etc. They're digital so the printing will be up to you. Send me PM if you're interested
scratch doesnt have to be historically accurate, it has to look like the ship in your mind's eye, and built as close to your plans... its a reasonably accurate repersentation but more of a demonstration of your skills. working at scale has limitations so much of your work is a compromise to look alike the real thing. eg i use the brass beads from the bottom end of guitar strings and gears from watches n clocks, fish hooks, sewing pins, toothpicks, jewelery beads, the metal band of a pen, pen springs, wd40 straws, heads of nice looking screws from an old camera tear down, anything i can turn into parts for my boats. are they accurate?... no but it sure looks like a nice detail in the end. use your imagination and have fun building.
you'll find after a couple boats, your skills will improve and your tool box will exponentionally grow as well. at that point, you'll be looking for more of a challange next time and may want more historical accracy.
the saying goes... "whatever floats your boat."
enjoy it as a hobby, not a job.
work when you feel like you need an escape from reality.
you'll find after a couple boats, your skills will improve and your tool box will exponentionally grow as well. at that point, you'll be looking for more of a challange next time and may want more historical accracy.
the saying goes... "whatever floats your boat."
enjoy it as a hobby, not a job.
work when you feel like you need an escape from reality.
Well put!
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Paul,
That’s right. I began building scratch models in our basement as a child using scrap lumber. My first project was the brig Niagara. Like the original, it had two masts and cannons. Otherwise it was my imagination. My classmates at Silver Lake School were impressed. Several other crude models followed. My first historically accurate model was not built until I was in my late ‘30’s.
Roger
That’s right. I began building scratch models in our basement as a child using scrap lumber. My first project was the brig Niagara. Like the original, it had two masts and cannons. Otherwise it was my imagination. My classmates at Silver Lake School were impressed. Several other crude models followed. My first historically accurate model was not built until I was in my late ‘30’s.
Roger
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Hi Roger,
As Bob pointed out, tons of research is the key in depicting a historical masterpiece, so after reading his “light bulb” insight, I shifted from a “grand master build” to a simple but accurate one.
Since resources are so limited at my current location, why not start with our own, I should have all the facts and can ask the history (even in person) the details and some data about any ships that originated from the Philippines.
Surely Bob pointed me out to the direction where I should go, and by confirming/validating your both input, I am now seeing my destination.
Wow, those wisdom that you guys told me are tremendous without even starting a project. I really appreciate everything!
It came to mind to suggest you look to local Philippine inshore watercraft for modeling subject matter today, intending to mention it later, but Roger beat me to it and he's spot on. Given your geographic limitations, modeling indigenous small craft would be a perfect place to start scratch modeling! A local maritime museum, if such exists, would be a great place to start. Otherwise, pick a type of craft unique to your location and start trying to find all the information you can on them. Since you'd be modeling a generic model, you wouldn't have to worry about slavishly replicating a specific vessel, but rather just one of the type. Some modelers have done this building a series of models of different local types, all in the same scale, so the different vessels in the set can be compared to each other. Since such craft are small, their models can be built relatively quickly. Find out where the fishermen keep their boats and take tons of photos and start a research file. Better yet, try to find somewhere that one is being built and take photos of the building process and details. You can also perhaps find a hulk or two of a type of boat that's obsolete and near extinct, perhaps on a mudflat or wherever boats there "go to die." Take more photos. Take measurements. Maybe build an accurate model of a boat that won't exist anywhere in a few years and will be an important contribution to the historical record.
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Hi Bob,
Yes!, I did that after reading your input and Roger's, I have an interest on making the first excavated 10th to 13th century CE merchant/sailing boat called "Balangay" in Butuan City, Philippines on the late 1970's. (Reference)
So far I have the plan and some images that I can use for modeling, right now working on scaling the original plan (LOA: 12m). I am also waiting for some orders to start my journey and make my first build log of "Balangay" in this forum.
Cheers!
This is what I think, it couldn't be better explained.
Years ago I tried to make a barge powered by a small crane from scratch and thus get started in radio control. In the end I bought a kit for an offshore tug and got a nice boat that sails.
I continue with my favorite hobby building other models with greater or lesser precision, but I love the challenge they provide.
I think this should be the goal.
Cheers
Now that's an excellent choice! Find out who did the archaeological dig on those boats and you'll probably find that they've got lots of drawings of construction detail. This is the sort of model that Howard I. Chapelle in his essay on "ships that should be modeled" encouraged everyone to build. https://thenrg.org/resource/articles/ship-models-that-ought-to-be-builltHi Bob,
Yes!, I did that after reading your input and Roger's, I have an interest on making the first excavated 10th to 13th century CE merchant/sailing boat called "Balangay" in Butuan City, Philippines on the late 1970's. (Reference)
So far I have the plan and some images that I can use for modeling, right now working on scaling the original plan (LOA: 12m). I am also waiting for some orders to start my journey and make my first build log of "Balangay" in this forum.
Cheers!