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Is the Golden era of POF gone!

Sorry, but I just can't understand this arrogance.

There are:
POB modelers
POF modelers
and scratch-build modelers.

They all have the same rights.

I’ve read that Vanguard are the old POB kits, but they’re not part of the same universe as POF. What nonsense. There are modelers who just want to build POB. And they deserve good quality. Just like the Vanguard kits, for example. How does anyone come to the conclusion that modelers want to switch to POF? Model builders want to build models. Any kind of model. Some build POB, others build POF.
POF model builders aren’t on some higher level of model building. They represent a different approach to ship modeling. Many model builders don’t want to do POF; they’re happy with their hobby just the way it is.

Where does the assumption come from that the future of the hobby lies in moving away from tried-and-true kits with planks and bulkheads? This technology isn’t outdated; it’s simply a different approach to the same goal: building a ship model and having fun doing it.

And the view that, when a kit first hits the market, there can be no copyright infringement is simply legally incorrect. Sorry. That’s wrong.

And what technology do traditional POF manufacturers have at their disposal? They work with the same laser cutters and the same milling machines as their competitors from, say, China.
As for the statement, “How many modelers can afford to buy a kit for over €1,000?”—I can’t follow the logic. A POF model kit for La Renommee costs €2,400. You can get a mid-range Vanguard kit for as little as €500. I built the Granado; I think my diorama, with all the other parts, the mechanism for raising the hull, and many aftermarket parts I bought separately, definitely cost over 3,000€.

The question is what it's worth to me, as a model builder, to build a particular kit. Not whether it's POB or POF.
 
Horace said:
purist enough to prefer a PoF kit but not purist enough to do scratch building.
Click to expand...
I guess if builders only do POF they are purists to the same extent as any builders that only do POB are purists. But what happens with some of us........ I prefer POF if the framing will be exposed. For fully planked models I prefer POB, both in the interest in delivery required and keeping within a budget of work time and materials that will yield a fair profit on the final model. Am I a part time purist or just some sort of cross breed?:eek::)
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
If the old POB manufacturers don’t soon adapt to the quality standards now demanded by model shipbuilders—with Vanguard Models setting the bar here—they’ll run into trouble sooner or later. I built a Vanguard model that was excellent, and then a CAF POF model. The quality of the CAF model was fascinating. Personally, from a craftsmanship standpoint, POF simply appeals to me more.


The topic is about POF (plank on frame) models not POB (plank on bulkhead) Vanguard kits are the old POB kits they may set the standards in hobby kits but are not even in the same universe as plank on frame modeling. As you said "If the old POB manufacturers don’t soon adapt to the quality standards now demanded by model shipbuilders" Vanguard kits may have reached the top of hobby kits they too face the challenges of builders wanting to step up to POF modeling. Vanguard kits along with many others are old school POB double planked hulls.


What I could see was a surge in new suppliers a few years ago. Mostly Chinese and Russians. The conventional European and American suppliers did not follow the trend

The wave of kits being made in China are on the cutting-edge of POF kits introduced by a cutting-edge supplier Dry Dock Models who sees the future of the hobby and a breakaway from the same old plank on bulkheads kits of the last 50 years. Sure, one company claims better quality, but the technology is old.

The consequence was obviously higher prices, which is not nice, but necessary. We have to appreciate (and pay for) details - the preparation of such a kit is enormous. The other side of this is the good old question of copyright. The first of these (mostly Chinese) kits had a bad 'press' - the oldies attacked them, saying that they were all 'stolen'.

I think on the scene of ship model kits the same is happening as with anything else in production. First, a number of manufacturers turn up and try to run the wave. Then the commercial reality bites, and only those with established technical and commercial backgrounds remain. Some who don't have the financial background or the technology fall out. Only the stubborn ones remain - this is the phase we can see with the model kits today. Time will tell whether the old, traditional European or American suppliers will stay on or will fail.
János

if a company introduces a POF kit and no other manufactures such a kit then how can it be stolen? from where and from whom? But the tables have turned and All kits and manufactures are now accepted.


Some who don't have the financial background or the technology fall out

traditional European or American kit makers do have the technology it is the cost of manufacturing that cripples the progress. It will end up few will pay $1,500.00 and up for a hobby model kit. That is pricing it right out of the hobby market making it highly specialized for a very small niche market. That small of a market is not sustainable, how many $1,000.00 kits do you think a builder will buy? one? how many POF kits does the supplier offer 1 many 3 so even if a builder builds all you offer then they are done with you OR go into scratch building.
Click to expand...
I know that this builder will not pay $1,000 or more. It's not that I don't appreciate such models, it's just that I don't have that kind of money. I remember that I once wanted to buy the Amati HMS Vanguard at the then current price of around $600, but then suffered many injuries. The prices have since escalated dramatically to the point that I can no longer afford to consider this kit. I will therefore simply convert the Heller 1/144 Le Superbe instead.
 
AllanKP69 said:
I guess if builders only do POF they are purists to the same extent as any builders that only do POB are purists. But what happens with some of us........ I prefer POF if the framing will be exposed. For fully planked models I prefer POB, both in the interest in delivery required and keeping within a budget of work time and materials that will yield a fair profit on the final model. Am I a part time purist or just some sort of cross breed?:eek::)
Click to expand...
I doubt anybody intentionally "only does PoB". That would just happen by accident. I assume vast majority of hobbyists are exactly as you describe yourself. They expect a model to look good, and if PoF is required for that, then they'll choose PoF for that model, by pure happenstance rather than a purist mentality. Such a model would probably not be available in a PoB version. They may not even be aware that their cross-section model is called a "PoF", by people who think or care about such things. My ignorant guess is that vast majority of kit buyers do not in fact think or care about those labels. So, I don't think I'd agree that there's such a thing as a PoB purist to the same extent as there are apparently PoF purists.
 
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POF model builders aren’t on some higher level of model building.

that is true or could be true it is not the builder in question that is on a different level it is the PoF build that is on another level because it is harder to do.

Lining up 10 bulkheads on a center profile is not quite the same level as building up 67 frames one by one and framing in a hull.


Where does the assumption come from that the future of the hobby lies in moving away from tried-and-true kits with planks and bulkheads? This technology isn’t outdated; it’s simply a different approach to the same goal: building a ship model and having fun doing it.

it is not moving away from it is adding to, so the "assumption" is yours and only yours. The subject is about PoF kits and where are they and not about PoF kits replacing PoB

And what technology do traditional POF manufacturers have at their disposal? They work with the same laser cutters and the same milling machines as their competitors from, say, China.

There are no traditional POF manufacturers but to produce a PoF kit requires tech skills to research, develop and design and to know how a PoF ship is built. The final step of using the machines is not the point it is getting there. It is in the technology i can sit at my computer CAD station and crank out 10 bulkhead hulls to one framed hull.

I can’t follow the logic. A POF model kit for La Renommee costs €2,400. You can get a mid-range Vanguard kit for as little as €500.
“How many modelers can afford to buy a kit for over €1,000?”

ok let me try to help you follow the logic the two kits you mention are not in the same league Vanguard kit is a simplified plank on bulkhead build so it is cheaper POF model kit for La Renommee is far more complex a build and your building a hull like an actual ship and not simple bulkheads. so the statement is how many builders are willing buy high end PoF kits at a high cost? i think very few.

it’s simply a different approach to the same goal: building a ship model and having fun doing it.

it really is not the same goal for everyone to have "fun" it is for some builders and others it is a learning process, others is to challenge and continue to improve and advance. I would not consider myself as having fun designing and building model ships fun implies a carefree attitude of so what. What i would consider myself is more like i love doing it a passion and desire to knowing more and better skills
 
Not a kit buyer but I assume that the buying decision is based on the usual factors; interest in the subject, difficulty, cost, etc. Based on opinions posted on this and other forums, historical accuracy often seems to be a less important factor and in the case of POB kits it would be difficult if not impossible for buyers to tell before opening the box how well the kit will reproduce an accurate hull form of the real ship especially if them kit does not include a lines drawing for comparison.

I personally take a holistic approach. I first decide on a subject, preferably one that’s unique, then the model’s scale and what my “artistic vision” will be. Then I decide what approach will best achieve these objectives. I would not hesitate to use POB, POF, solid hull or combinations of the three. Some building techniques work better than others for certain subjects. For example, a solid hull technique works best for an iron or steel hulled vessel. For a half decked small craft model a combination POB and POF technique might work best.

There are thousands of ship modeling subjects and many different ways to model them.

Roger
 
I doubt anybody intentionally "only does PoB". That would just happen by accident.

i agree or the only thing available in a kit is PoB. If a PoB builder had a reasonably priced PoF kit or semi-kit available i think they would give it a go. That term "purest" refers to nothing or no one because we all are capable and willing to try anything.
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
I doubt anybody intentionally "only does PoB". That would just happen by accident.

i agree or the only thing available in a kit is PoB. If a PoB builder had a reasonably priced PoF kit or semi-kit available i think they would give it a go. That term "purest" refers to nothing or no one because we all are capable and willing to try anything.
Click to expand...
You can choose your own word to describe those with a stated strong preference for PoF due to the accuracy and realism of the build method. I'm comfy with mine. :)
 
Again, there’s no better way to make solid hull models. It depends on the shape of the hull. Any of the methods that you mentioned can be used depending on the situation.

Roger
 
Wow, this is a robust discussion, as some politicians would say!

I don't agree with the triple classification 'POB - POF - Scratch built'. POB and POF are OK, but scratch building does cot classify as a separate category. If someone starts with the plan (or uses plans made by others) and cuts all the parts himself (and not herself, lets accept that our hobby is done nearly exclusively by blokes) then builds them together, now this is scratch building. And it can be either POB (mostly) or POF (sometimes). My next project will be a scratch built POB model. The 'mass' POF kits had been introduced by the Chinese and Russian kit manufacturers, before that nearly everything was POB - either scratch built or from a kit.

Janos
 
WilliamM said:
I will therefore simply convert the Heller 1/144 Le Superbe instead.
Click to expand...
There are other options:
WIKI Commons has free full size 1/4" scale lines (plus decks and guts) for several of the Bellona class 74 for download at no cost.
With the plans - it is possible to scratch build - in any style that you choose to develop.
1:144 is really small. 1:96 - for a 74 is sort of large enough to notice. 1:128 3/32":1' sort of splits the difference.
(I prefer round numbers so 1:120 for me.)
I suspect that for an inexperienced scratch builder - carved to shape from layers - port and stb done independently is probably the high probability method. This small - I think that archival grade 3x5 card may be possible hull planking.
For carved, clear Pine or better Yellow Poplar. The stock is low cost and because of the size - is fast to work. I suspect this would be learn as you go so doing the hull over as many as 4-5 times will not be costly in materials - just time.
 
The real question, is what’s in trend these days, hype for scale ship modeling seems to have just passed.

Those one-off tourists stirred things up, left a mess and a racket behind, and then moved on to create chaos and make life difficult for people elsewhere.

It’s always been that way, and it always will be, all that’s left are people who have to clean up that mess, ones who actually have a genuine passion in life...
 
At the end, all that discussion is just another storm in a glass of water. Everyone, just build what you like and how you like it best. Ship modelling is a very nice way to pass our time, and that time is much too precious to spend it haggling about how and why something is better than something other. Just have fun doing your thing, all of you.
 
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